6:11 - Chernabog vs. Madam Mim

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 6, ROUND 11

Chernabog

Slot: The Team's Disney Fairy Tale Villain
Season Wins: 4
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Chernabog at Wikipedia
Official Site: Disney

Madam Mim

Slot: The Team's Disney Fairy Tale Villain
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Madam Mim at Wikipedia
Official Site: Disney

Battle Terrain
Disney Villains: Turn Elsa to the dark side

[DSkillz]

Heh, I was just about expecting this match-up to come down the pike at some point. Honestly, a good quarter of this slot concerned me when I picked Madam Mim. But here goes:

Chernabog may be indeed a powerful source of evil, but Mim has powerful magic in her own right:

 

 

If she ever makes an appearance in a Kingdom Hearts game, her entry in Jiminy's Journal would likely note that her skill in magic is "second-to-none" like Merlin (who she faces off with here), Maleficent, and Yen Sid.

Besides, it might not even come down to who has more powerful magic. With Mim's ability to shapeshift, she could turn into Anna and/or any of Elsa's friends to try to sway her toward evil. As powerful as Chernabog is, I've never seen him do shapeshifting.

[JohnnyChany]

I don't think simple deception will work, Elsa is too smart to fall for someone who looks like Anna but clearly isn't her. As I stated before I believe the only way to really turn Elsa evil (in a Star Wars give into the darkness and hatred sort of way) is to absolutely obliterate Arendale and take out her family. Chernabog can do that, I don't know if Madam Mim can.

[Peypeypeypey]

1 hour ago, JohnnyChany said:

I don't think simple deception will work, Elsa is too smart to fall for someone who looks like Anna but clearly isn't her. As I stated before I believe the only way to really turn Elsa evil (in a Star Wars give into the darkness and hatred sort of way) is to absolutely obliterate Arendale and take out her family. Chernabog can do that, I don't know if Madam Mim can.

Again, there's no evidence that Chernabog can do that. He has no feats. He's just a big, scary monster, but there's no evidence that Elsa couldn't just body him if he attacked her family. Also, the villain killing the hero's entire family is like every superhero's origin story. I don't understand why you think that would make her want to join him.

[DSkillz]

2 hours ago, JohnnyChany said:

I don't think simple deception will work, Elsa is too smart to fall for someone who looks like Anna but clearly isn't her.

I don't know; Mim might either do her homework to get an understanding of the mannerisms, etc. of Elsa's loved ones, or cast an accompanying spell to more immediately do the same before she actually goes to try to deceive Elsa.

[JohnnyChany]

2 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Again, there's no evidence that Chernabog can do that. He has no feats. He's just a big, scary monster, but there's no evidence that Elsa couldn't just body him if he attacked her family. Also, the villain killing the hero's entire family is like every superhero's origin story. I don't understand why you think that would make her want to join him.

I never stated he would defeat her and I never said she would join him. Again, I'm looking at turning evil as in an Anakin killing Dooku beginning his descent sort of thing. The ends justify the means. Would Elsa drop her moral compass to defeat what is described as the embodiment of evil even if it means hurting a few innocent civilians just because the scope of the frost needed. I think it's possible. 

[Peypeypeypey]

2 hours ago, JohnnyChany said:

I never stated he would defeat her and I never said she would join him. Again, I'm looking at turning evil as in an Anakin killing Dooku beginning his descent sort of thing. The ends justify the means. Would Elsa drop her moral compass to defeat what is described as the embodiment of evil even if it means hurting a few innocent civilians just because the scope of the frost needed. I think it's possible. 

Again, there's not even any evidence that she would need to harm any civilians to defeat him. And even so, that isn't "permanently turning her evil" like in the prompt. Even in the most generous interpretation there, it's her using morally grey methods to defeat a being of pure evil. That's not what the prompt is 

[JohnnyChany]

There's no evidence for literally anything in this hypothetical situation, Neither character has displayed an ability to turn anyone evil. It's all conjecture, as is the case with a lot of these setups. There is not going to be a fool proof argument either way, because there is nothing to draw from.

I am using a Star Wars scenario (which morally grey can lead to full evil) because it is the best option I have to support my character. DSkillz is going with magically assisted deception, which isn't a bad angle, but also there is no evidence that it could turn Elsa permanently evil. Which brings me back to my original point 

[DSkillz]

You know, since there doesn't appear to be a time limit on turning Elsa, the process could be gradual, which pretty much favors both villains. I could see Mim using her magic and influence to do subtle things over time to corrupt her.

[Macklemore]

I actually like DSkillz's approach to this one, as he said, Madam Mim could in fact shapeshift into any one of Elsa's friends and basically push her off from them. Seems more likely than Demon Man destroying a village, at least.

[Fox]

We have a pretty good idea of what Madam Mim brings to the table in this challenge.  Chernabog is a bit of an X-Factor, however.  How would he go about this challenge?

Some have suggested that Chernabog would destroy Elsa's town, friends and all she holds dear.  Likely, that is a terrible strategy which would have the opposite effect of what was desired.  It is doubtful that Chernabog would do that.

The first thing to remember is that Elsa in the film Frozen is already turning evil - until she doesn't and is redeemed.  Her personal arc is one of redemption.  So, the key for our two contenders today is to clear the path and let Elsa keep on going evil as a natural progression.

Enter Chernabog.  What is Chernabog?  Chernabog is the Slavic Black God of Ill-Fate.  And what does Elsa seem to have which makes her turn her back on her sister and humanity?  Yep, ill-fate.  The ill-fate of having the powers she does which are dangerous and cause people to fear her.

It wouldn't take much more ill-fate to push Elsa over the edge. And the Black God will be there to hand out all the ill-fate the situation requires.

 

[SSJRuss]

1 hour ago, Fox said:

We have a pretty good idea of what Madam Mim brings to the table in this challenge.  Chernabog is a bit of an X-Factor, however.  How would he go about this challenge?

Some have suggested that Chernabog would destroy Elsa's town, friends and all she holds dear.  Likely, that is a terrible strategy which would have the opposite effect of what was desired.  It is doubtful that Chernabog would do that.

The first thing to remember is that Elsa in the film Frozen is already turning evil - until she doesn't and is redeemed.  Her personal arc is one of redemption.  So, the key for our two contenders today is to clear the path and let Elsa keep on going evil as a natural progression.

Enter Chernabog.  What is Chernabog?  Chernabog is the Slavic Black God of Ill-Fate.  And what does Elsa seem to have which makes her turn her back on her sister and humanity?  Yep, ill-fate.  The ill-fate of having the powers she does which are dangerous and cause people to fear her.

It wouldn't take much more ill-fate to push Elsa over the edge. And the Black God will be there to hand out all the ill-fate the situation requires.

 

Damn. That settles that then. Chernabog has my vote.

[Peypeypeypey]

4 hours ago, Fox said:

We have a pretty good idea of what Madam Mim brings to the table in this challenge.  Chernabog is a bit of an X-Factor, however.  How would he go about this challenge?

Some have suggested that Chernabog would destroy Elsa's town, friends and all she holds dear.  Likely, that is a terrible strategy which would have the opposite effect of what was desired.  It is doubtful that Chernabog would do that.

The first thing to remember is that Elsa in the film Frozen is already turning evil - until she doesn't and is redeemed.  Her personal arc is one of redemption.  So, the key for our two contenders today is to clear the path and let Elsa keep on going evil as a natural progression.

Enter Chernabog.  What is Chernabog?  Chernabog is the Slavic Black God of Ill-Fate.  And what does Elsa seem to have which makes her turn her back on her sister and humanity?  Yep, ill-fate.  The ill-fate of having the powers she does which are dangerous and cause people to fear her.

It wouldn't take much more ill-fate to push Elsa over the edge. And the Black God will be there to hand out all the ill-fate the situation requires.

 

You can't attribute Chernobog's feats to Chernabog. While the wikipedia page for Chernobog claims that Disney's Chernabog is a version of Chernobog, Chernabog's wikipedia entry merely states that Chernabog "takes his name" from the deity, rather than being an actual interpretation of the God himself. In fact, apparently Disney himself said Chernabog is just Satan, and he's frequently referred to as a devil or demon, decidedly not a Slavic God. Therefore this entire argument just doesn't work for me at all. Even if we accept that he is based on the deity, that doesn't give him any more feats to go on, and I don't vote based on vague interpretations and implications. Chernabog has never shown influence over ill-fate in any material that I've seen, and feat-wise, he's just a big devil who dances with littler devils. 

[Fox]

6 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

You can't attribute Chernobog's feats to Chernabog. While the wikipedia page for Chernobog claims that Disney's Chernabog is a version of Chernobog, Chernabog's wikipedia entry merely states that Chernabog "takes his name" from the deity, rather than being an actual interpretation of the God himself. In fact, apparently Disney himself said Chernabog is just Satan, and he's frequently referred to as a devil or demon, decidedly not a Slavic God. Therefore this entire argument just doesn't work for me at all. Even if we accept that he is based on the deity, that doesn't give him any more feats to go on, and I don't vote based on vague interpretations and implications. Chernabog has never shown influence over ill-fate in any material that I've seen, and feat-wise, he's just a big devil who dances with littler devils. 

A strong argument to be sure.  I can see your viewpoint.

However, we must go by what the creator of the character (Disney in this case) intended.  And you have quoted the passage from that I saw but did not lay down.

"In fact, apparently Disney himself said Chernabog is just Satan."

And that is truly game over for this match.  Because nobody turns them to the dark side like Satan himself.

It's honestly not Chernabog's fault that he was cast in a musical.  I'm sure his appearance in a more plot driven film would showcase more of these talents.

[Peypeypeypey]

3 minutes ago, Fox said:

A strong argument to be sure.  I can see your viewpoint.

However, we must go by what the creator of the character (Disney in this case) intended.  And you have quoted the passage from that I saw but did not lay down.

"In fact, apparently Disney himself said Chernabog is just Satan."

And that is truly game over for this match.  Because nobody turns them to the dark side like Satan himself.

It's honestly not Chernabog's fault that he was cast in a musical.  I'm sure his appearance in a more plot driven film would showcase more of these talents.

Again, I disagree because Disney's Chernabog doesn't have the same feats that Biblical Satan does. To put it another way, if we were debating Disney's Hercules, or Disney's Maui from Moana, I wouldn't accept feats from their mythical counterparts. Those are different versions of the character with a different set of feats, different stories, etc. Their feats are not applicable to each other. In the same way, Cherny shouldn't get Satan's feats, and on his own, he has zero feats I can find of him being an influential or manipulative figure. He could maybe do it, sure, but in everything I've seen of him he's either comic relief or bombastically, enthusiastically, and unapologetically evil, which wouldn't persuade Elsa at all 

[Fox]

15 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Again, I disagree because Disney's Chernabog doesn't have the same feats that Biblical Satan does. To put it another way, if we were debating Disney's Hercules, or Disney's Maui from Moana, I wouldn't accept feats from their mythical counterparts. Those are different versions of the character with a different set of feats, different stories, etc. Their feats are not applicable to each other. In the same way, Cherny shouldn't get Satan's feats, and on his own, he has zero feats I can find of him being an influential or manipulative figure. He could maybe do it, sure, but in everything I've seen of him he's either comic relief or bombastically, enthusiastically, and unapologetically evil, which wouldn't persuade Elsa at all 

I see. 

Well, if all we are allowed is the actual 11 minutes of Fantasia and cannot intuit anything about the character beyond that, then that would seem to put Chernabog at a disadvantage.

What do we really see?  Chernabog partying I guess. 

He looks like he might be a fun guy!

He's got it going on with the bringing the spirits of the dead out of the graves to dance around.  Certainly he doesn't harm anyone, no.  He's just a big, fun guy who knows what it's like to be a lonely outcast.  Elsa might be attracted to that.

We also see he has a lot of power to twist and remake souls in the above 11 minutes, which he does just because he's bored.

Anyways, it's clear we are coming at this from different points and won't see eye to eye on it, and that's fine.  I personally think that in a contest to turn someones soul, Chernabog has more tools than you give him credit for. 

 

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Chernabog: 4
Madam Mim: 3