8:8 - Officer Rick Grimes vs. Major Alan "Dutch" Schaefer

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 8, ROUND 8

Officer Rick Grimes

Slot: The Team's Survivor
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Officer Rick Grimes at this Wiki
Official Site: Image Comics

Major Alan "Dutch" Schaefer

Slot: The Team's Survivor
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Major Alan "Dutch" Schaefer at this Wiki
Official Site: 20th Century Fox

Battle Terrain
Survival Challenge: Who survives the sinking of the Indianapolis

[Peypeypeypey]

So this one, like Sarah Connor vs. Michonne, I feel like both could do equally well, and whether or not they get eaten is pretty much pure chance. My only thing to add is that walkers are much closer in behavior to sharks than a Predator is, and Rick is probably a better survivalist than Dutch, not that it'll really help much. Again, either would be fine, so by the thinnest of margins I think Rick would be better based on his daily experience with life-threatening situations, his superior survivalist skills, and his experience with a more similar foe.

[Bergy_Berg]

Rick does have a little more experience with bitey eating machines, but Dutch actually has the advantage here for two reason.

First, he's used to strategizing his way around a smart opponent. Out-thinking and surviving sharks should be no problem when compared to predators.

Second, as shown in the expanded canon when Dutch uses other mercenaries as bait, he has no issue sacrificing others to get ahead. Dutch would use anything at his disposal, including other's lives, to get ahead.

[Peypeypeypey]

8 minutes ago, Bergy_Berg said:

Rick does have a little more experience with bitey eating machines, but Dutch actually has the advantage here for two reason.

First, he's used to strategizing his way around a smart opponent. Out-thinking and surviving sharks should be no problem when compared to predators.

Second, as shown in the expanded canon when Dutch uses other mercenaries as bait, he has no issue sacrificing others to get ahead. Dutch would use anything at his disposal, including other's lives, to get ahead.

I disagree for many reasons. First, fighting a smart opponent genuinely doesn't prepare you for fighting an animalistic one. In fact, the way I remember him beating the predator was by taking advantage of things like its honor, which sharks don't have. As for your second point, if one guy is throwing other guys underwater or something, it's highly likely others will turn on that guy. I'm not even sure what he could do to increase his personal chances in such a way because if he sacrifices another person it's just going to perpetuate the feeding frenzy. I think Rick has more consistent feats and experience to pull a win here

 

[Bergy_Berg]

6 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I disagree for many reasons. First, fighting a smart opponent genuinely doesn't prepare you for fighting an animalistic one. In fact, the way I remember him beating the predator was by taking advantage of things like its honor, which sharks don't have. As for your second point, if one guy is throwing other guys underwater or something, it's highly likely others will turn on that guy. I'm not even sure what he could do to increase his personal chances in such a way because if he sacrifices another person it's just going to perpetuate the feeding frenzy. I think Rick has more consistent feats and experience to pull a win here

 

Dutch isn't an idiot, he's not gonna randomly start murdering people. What I'm saying is that he's crafty and opportunistic, and those traits put him ahead of Rick.

This is an opponent that Rick will struggle to kill and can't hide from. His zombie skills are less applicable than you think.

[Peypeypeypey]

6 minutes ago, Bergy_Berg said:

Dutch isn't an idiot, he's not gonna randomly start murdering people. What I'm saying is that he's crafty and opportunistic, and those traits put him ahead of Rick.

This is an opponent that Rick will struggle to kill and can't hide from. His zombie skills are less applicable than you think.

You're mischaracterizing Rick if you think he isn't also crafty and opportunistic. For example, during the prison, Rick took advantage of a zombie outbreak to shoot one of the prisons in cold blood because he had threatened his family. Rick is no less opportunistic than Dutch, and I would argue is craftier because of a life time of having to adapt to his scenario, as opposed to one time fighting a predator. 

Dutch would also struggle in the exact same way. If memory serves, Dutch hides himself from the predator's vision and then sets traps, which is equally useless here. Like I said, both are roughly equal here, so it comes down to the thinnest of margins. Rick fights a more similar foe to sharks than Dutch does, Rick is no less crafty or opportunistic, and Rick is more used to survival and life-threatening situations

[Bergy_Berg]

1 minute ago, Peypeypeypey said:

You're mischaracterizing Rick if you think he isn't also crafty and opportunistic. For example, during the prison, Rick took advantage of a zombie outbreak to shoot one of the prisons in cold blood because he had threatened his family. Rick is no less opportunistic than Dutch, and I would argue is craftier because of a life time of having to adapt to his scenario, as opposed to one time fighting a predator. 

Dutch would also struggle in the exact same way. If memory serves, Dutch hides himself from the predator's vision and then sets traps, which is equally useless here. Like I said, both are roughly equal here, so it comes down to the thinnest of margins. Rick fights a more similar foe to sharks than Dutch does, Rick is no less crafty or opportunistic, and Rick is more used to survival and life-threatening situations

It's not one time fighting a predator. After the film, Dutch spends his life hunting down predators. That's when he hones his craftiness. Not to mention he's a trained soldier and Vietnam War vet. You may think I'm not giving Rick his dues, but you're grossly understating the skills and experience that Dutch brings to this.

Rick has never faced something as dangerous as the Predators, and it takes Rick longer to adapt to zombies than it took for Dutch to adapt to an intelligent alien with advanced tech. Dutch is quicker, stronger, and every bit as smart if not smarter than Rick.

If we're talking thin margins, it's the Sheriff who's more likely to get chewed up. I would put my money on Dutch being the one to live through this.

[Fox]

On the topic of crafty and opportunistic, there is a place for that in this match.

During the actual Indianapolis event when the crew was in the water for 5 days, there were few life vests.  The only way to get one was to get it from a corpse.

Same with the very few life rafts that made it into the water.

[Magnamax]

I think Rick’s best characteristic for a match-up like this is leadership. Getting the group to work together and utilize resources seems more up his alley than Dutch. 
 

EDIT: Not sure where Im voting yet. Trying to review Dutch’s EU files for what he did after the first film.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Magnamax
Added context

[Peypeypeypey]

54 minutes ago, Bergy_Berg said:

It's not one time fighting a predator. After the film, Dutch spends his life hunting down predators. That's when he hones his craftiness. Not to mention he's a trained soldier and Vietnam War vet. You may think I'm not giving Rick his dues, but you're grossly understating the skills and experience that Dutch brings to this.

Rick has never faced something as dangerous as the Predators, and it takes Rick longer to adapt to zombies than it took for Dutch to adapt to an intelligent alien with advanced tech. Dutch is quicker, stronger, and every bit as smart if not smarter than Rick.

If we're talking thin margins, it's the Sheriff who's more likely to get chewed up. I would put my money on Dutch being the one to live through this.

Rick has never faced something as dangerous as a predator at any one time, but his skill in this slot comes from his daily life dealing with life-threatening situations. Literally every minute of every day, Rick is fighting in a dilapidated dystopia. And I don't think it took Rick longer to adapt at all. The only reason he was caught off guard is because he was in a coma when it started. By the end of the first volume, he thoroughly understood the world he lived in and the threat of the zombies and the humans, so I just disagree that it took him a significantly long time to adapt. 

Rick is far more charismatic and would be able to create order much more effectively than Dutch. Rick is smarter than Dutch at survivalism, which is what's going to be tested here. Rick not only survives his monsters every day, and the marauding bands of humans gunning for him and his group, but he thrives. He plays a massive role in recreating society from the ground up, and is proven to be able to survive on his own for incredibly long periods of time. 

The soldier training isn't really going to help much here, nor is the predator experience. Rick's charisma and superior survivalism is going to win the day

[Pizzaguy2995]

Eh, I personally think Rick has better pure survival feats then Dutch. Sorry Bergy.

[Bergy_Berg]

I really don't see where Rick has an advantage here.

His leadership skills mean nothing, he's a civilian cop stranded on the high seas with soldiers. They won't care what he has to say at all. Compare that to Dutch, who was a Major-you know, an officer. I know Dutch was army and the Indianapolis is navy, but soldiers are more likely to listen to another seasoned soldier than some sheriff.

Second, we're not rebuilding civilization here. This is purely about surviving a few days in incredibly harsh conditions against an enemy that attacks via ambush. Dutch is a Vietnam vet, so he has harsh conditions and being ambushed checked off. The man also survived torture by the Viet Cong, which the predator novel states gave him resistance to pain. Think about the fact that most of these sailors probably died to something other than sharks, such as dehydration or exposure, and the tougher and more resilient Dutch has a clear advantage.

Finally, on the topic of who the more crafty and capable of taking advantage of their surroundings is, think about Rick's nature. He only acts in a ruthless manner in order to protect others. He's unlikely to do anything that risks the lives of the soldiers in the water. It's more likely that Rick does the self-sacrificing thing and gives up a life jacket or his spot on a raft for someone else. Dutch will be looking out for himself more than Rick will, and Rick will suffer for it.

[Peypeypeypey]

29 minutes ago, Bergy_Berg said:

I really don't see where Rick has an advantage here.

His leadership skills mean nothing, he's a civilian cop stranded on the high seas with soldiers. They won't care what he has to say at all. Compare that to Dutch, who was a Major-you know, an officer. I know Dutch was army and the Indianapolis is navy, but soldiers are more likely to listen to another seasoned soldier than some sheriff.

I disagree. Abraham Ford was a military man through and through and Rick was charismatic enough to gain his trust and respect very quickly. And he doesn't have to convince all of them, or even a lot of them. But in any given interaction with any given soldier, Rick is going to be more likely to persuade that soldier to work together, and more willing to work with said solider, than Dutch will. 

32 minutes ago, Bergy_Berg said:

Second, we're not rebuilding civilization here. This is purely about surviving a few days in incredibly harsh conditions against an enemy that attacks via ambush. Dutch is a Vietnam vet, so he has harsh conditions and being ambushed checked off. The man also survived torture by the Viet Cong, which the predator novel states gave him resistance to pain. Think about the fact that most of these sailors probably died to something other than sharks, such as dehydration or exposure, and the tougher and more resilient Dutch has a clear advantage.

Rick has literally survived for years in a post apocalyptic world. He has been tortured by the likes of the Governor and Negan, the latter of whom was straight up sadistic, he's gone long stretches of time where food and water are completely unavailable to him, such as when the prison fell, and he has fought countless groups of marauders who use ambush tactics, such as the Whisperers, who disguise themselves as zombies to infiltrate and attack. I don't know where you're getting the idea that Dutch is quantifiably more tough and resilient than Rick, but there's really no evidence for that. Rick has been in a harsh environment for years by the end of the series and it has made him incredibly tough and resilient as well. I can't say for sure that he's more resilient than Dutch, but I can say for sure that you need a lot more evidence that Dutch is more resilient for me to believe such a claim. That, coupled with the fact that zombies are closer to sharks than a predator is, and the fact that Rick has better survivalist skills, means that Rick should have the advantage here.

37 minutes ago, Bergy_Berg said:

Finally, on the topic of who the more crafty and capable of taking advantage of their surroundings is, think about Rick's nature. He only acts in a ruthless manner in order to protect others. He's unlikely to do anything that risks the lives of the soldiers in the water. It's more likely that Rick does the self-sacrificing thing and gives up a life jacket or his spot on a raft for someone else. Dutch will be looking out for himself more than Rick will, and Rick will suffer for it.

That's definitely not really true. He's more like to help other soldiers than Dutch is, I agree with that, but he's consistently put his own survival above the survival of others. The only reason he is often hesitant to kill people is because he lives in a world where like only .1% of the human population is still alive, so he doesn't like to kill unless he has to. Granted, he probably wouldn't be likely to kill an innocent soldier, I agree with you there, but I also don't think he would really have to, and if it was that or dying, Rick has proven time and time again to put his own survival and the survival of his in-group above the survival of others

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Officer Rick Grimes: 4
Major Alan "Dutch" Schaefer : 6