9:1 - Squirrel Girl vs. Goku Black

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 9, ROUND 1

Squirrel Girl

Slot: The Team's Marvel Comics Character
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Squirrel Girl at this Wiki
Official Site: Marvel Entertainment

Goku Black

Slot: The Team's Anime Character
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Goku Black at this Wiki
Official Site: Funimation

Battle Terrain
Location: Los Angeles

[Peypeypeypey]

Memes aside, I think Goku Black should probably win. Squirrel Girl's impressive canonical off-screen victories have all come with massive caveats, leaving her with no feats that put her on Black's level

[Fox]

50 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Memes aside, I think Goku Black should probably win. Squirrel Girl's impressive canonical off-screen victories have all come with massive caveats, leaving her with no feats that put her on Black's level

Yes, but are creating probabilities with massive caveats part of her powers?

It would almost seem so, wouldn't it?

[Macklemore]

37 minutes ago, Fox said:

Yes, but are creating probabilities with massive caveats part of her powers?

It would almost seem so, wouldn't it?

It 100% is, but I don't know if any of the people she's fought abuse the speed in the ways that Goku Black does. And Squirrel Girl is a glass cannon, so one good hit will destroy her.

[IKA]

10 hours ago, Macklemore said:

It 100% is, but I don't know if any of the people she's fought abuse the speed in the ways that Goku Black does. And Squirrel Girl is a glass cannon, so one good hit will destroy her.

Goku Black always monologues before a fight, it will give her plenty of time to do what she need to do. 

[Peypeypeypey]

35 minutes ago, IKA said:

Goku Black always monologues before a fight, it will give her plenty of time to do what she need to do. 

What are her actual wincons, though? Like, how is she going to win this fight? 

[DSkillz]

2 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

What are her actual wincons, though? Like, how is she going to win this fight? 

If she does win, odds are it will happen off-panel/off-screen.  

[SSJRuss]

5 hours ago, IKA said:

Goku Black always monologues before a fight, it will give her plenty of time to do what she need to do. 

This is why Squirrel Girl wins. Black monologues constantly, underestimates his opponents, and is a terrible strategist. He's the perfect villain to lose to Squirrel Girl

[Pizzaguy2995]

Very interesting arguments from both sides, will need to hear more before I cast my vote though.

[Movie-Brat]

14 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

What are her actual wincons, though? Like, how is she going to win this fight? 

The woman beat Doctor Doom. It's canon in the comics. And even managed to talk down Galactus.

[Peypeypeypey]

10 minutes ago, Movie-Brat said:

The woman beat Doctor Doom. It's canon in the comics. And even managed to talk down Galactus.

Beating Dr. Doom is a lot less impressive than beating Goku Black. And she did talk down Galactus, but Galactus is definitely not as evil as Goku Black. Galactus is like Chaotic Neutral, maybe? He does what he does because he needs to survive and because it's the natural order of things, but he rarely acts out of malice or hatred. Goku Black is much more malicious and much more willing to do evil things, making him much harder to talk down

[Movie-Brat]

35 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Beating Dr. Doom is a lot less impressive than beating Goku Black. And she did talk down Galactus, but Galactus is definitely not as evil as Goku Black. Galactus is like Chaotic Neutral, maybe? He does what he does because he needs to survive and because it's the natural order of things, but he rarely acts out of malice or hatred. Goku Black is much more malicious and much more willing to do evil things, making him much harder to talk down

All the more enough for her to win. Hell, she managed to get Wolverine to think twice about taking on her. Wolverine himself of all people. 

[Fox]

This match is a perfect example of why using the characters Tier as the criteria for selecting a winner is flawed.

Squirrel Girl is nowhere near Goku Black's Tier, but I'll wager she wins anyways.

There are often extenuating circumstances which make Tier irrelevant.

[Movie-Brat]

26 minutes ago, Fox said:

This match is a perfect example of why using the characters Tier as the criteria for selecting a winner is flawed.

Squirrel Girl is nowhere near Goku Black's Tier, but I'll wager she wins anyways.

There are often extenuating circumstances which make Tier irrelevant.

Thank You! Exactly how I feel. 

[Peypeypeypey]

52 minutes ago, Movie-Brat said:

All the more enough for her to win. Hell, she managed to get Wolverine to think twice about taking on her. Wolverine himself of all people. 

That doesn't address my point at all lol. How is she practically going to win against someone as evil and ruthless as Goku Black. He's going to blast her off the face of the planet before she can react or get a word in.

42 minutes ago, Fox said:

This match is a perfect example of why using the characters Tier as the criteria for selecting a winner is flawed.

Squirrel Girl is nowhere near Goku Black's Tier, but I'll wager she wins anyways.

There are often extenuating circumstances which make Tier irrelevant.

I don't think anyone has ever said "Character A is in a higher tier, therefore they win" and have that be the end of the discussion. As I've said before, it's just a good place to start the discussion. There have been many examples in the tournament where weaker-tiered characters have won, or have been argued for vehemently. 

If anything is the "problem" here, it's characters like Squirrel Girl. I'm not saying she is a problem inherently, she's a good character in her own right and I'm sure has some good stories, but the problem lies in the fact that she's impossible to judge in these Vs. battle match-ups at all. Much like Bugs Bunny, and even characters like Deadpool to an extent, more comedic, toon-force-esque characters have always been hard to judge against serious opponents, especially if we go by feats like most people on here tend to do. That problem has existed long before we used the tier list though, and will always be a problem in these discussions. Going by feats, Squirrel Girl gets stomped out of existence in this match-up, so that's why I'm not voting for her 

[Movie-Brat]

48 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

That doesn't address my point at all lol. How is she practically going to win against someone as evil and ruthless as Goku Black. He's going to blast her off the face of the planet before she can react or get a word in.

A lot of things basically. Prominently she can summon a huge army of squirrels that took down even the most powerful and arrogant opponents. Squirrels can be vicious when they want to be in real life when provoked. 

[Peypeypeypey]

51 minutes ago, Movie-Brat said:

A lot of things basically. Prominently she can summon a huge army of squirrels that took down even the most powerful and arrogant opponents. Squirrels can be vicious when they want to be in real life when provoked. 

I know what she can do. I was perhaps unclear with my previous comment. Squirrel Girl is strong in her own right, but beating Dr. Doom and even base Thanos is not enough for me to believe she can take on Goku Black. Frankly, without prep, Dr. Doom is completely outclassed in this tier. Thanos is more competitive, but even he is a good bit weaker in his base form than the higher tiers in this category. Goku Black is far stronger than Base Thanos, and far more ruthless than Galactus or Thanos. He's going to go for the kill, and going by feats, which is always how I vote, he's going to be strong enough to win

[Movie-Brat]

Ah ah, the fact she beat Thanos is an impressive feat. That's enough credibility that she'd win the fight. 

[IKA]

Goku Black would not blast her immediately, he would explain his whole reasoning of doing so and demean her before attempting anything. He's too confident and that would be his downfall. 

[Peypeypeypey]

28 minutes ago, Movie-Brat said:

Ah ah, the fact she beat Thanos is an impressive feat. That's enough credibility that she'd win the fight. 

Beating Thanos is an undeniably impressive feat, but feat-wise, Goku Black leaves Thanos in the dust. Base Thanos is around a Solar System-level threat, maybe Galaxy level, it sort of depends, but Goku Black scales to Super Goku, who is a universal threat in his new base. Squirrel Girl has 0 feats at that level, so she shouldn't win.

18 minutes ago, IKA said:

Goku Black would not blast her immediately, he would explain his whole reasoning of doing so and demean her before attempting anything. He's too confident and that would be his downfall. 

How would she possibly take advantage of his overconfidence if she isn't strong enough to hurt him, fast enough to hit him, or smart enough to defeat him in some unconventional way? Even if what you say does happen his overconfidence is justified and he would beat her going by feats

[Fox]

18 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

 Going by feats, Squirrel Girl gets stomped out of existence in this match-up, so that's why I'm not voting for her 

The feats are essentially unknowable since they happen off-panel.

We might surmise that the battle goes like this:

GOKU BLACK MONOLOGUES

SQUIRREL GIRL IGNORES GOKU BLACK

GOKU BLACK MONOLOGUES HARDER

SOMETHING HAPPENS OFF-PANEL

SQUIRREL GIRL WINS

 

 

 

[Peypeypeypey]

18 minutes ago, Fox said:

(Cut for space)

If this were a Squirrel Girl comic, then sure. But it's not. For Vs Battles, we should only use scaling, feats, statements, etc., because otherwise the hero/protagonist character would always win. If Batman were against, say, Venom, then I'm sure in a Batman comic he would come up with a way to win, but in Vs Battle scenarios we strip away plot armor and look at what the characters have demonstrated the ability to do. Squirrel Girl doesn't have an explicit power that she can beat anyone in a fight, it's just plot armor. Interestingly, Saitama was in this tournament last season and is a functionally identical character but not a single person made these argument for him because it was just understood that we had to actually engage with the character as they are presented, not what would happen in one of their own stories with their plot armor. So no, I think it's just silly to interpret Squirrel Girl this way

[Macklemore]

24 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

If this were a Squirrel Girl comic, then sure. But it's not. For Vs Battles, we should only use scaling, feats, statements, etc., because otherwise the hero/protagonist character would always win. If Batman were against, say, Venom, then I'm sure in a Batman comic he would come up with a way to win, but in Vs Battle scenarios we strip away plot armor and look at what the characters have demonstrated the ability to do. Squirrel Girl doesn't have an explicit power that she can beat anyone in a fight, it's just plot armor. Interestingly, Saitama was in this tournament last season and is a functionally identical character but not a single person made these argument for him because it was just understood that we had to actually engage with the character as they are presented, not what would happen in one of their own stories with their plot armor. So no, I think it's just silly to interpret Squirrel Girl this way

I mean, she kinda has beaten people close to the level of Goku Black. Korvac and Ego come to mind.

[Magnamax]

Can anyone provide a credible way Squirrel Girl would win? PIS feats usually aren’t taken seriously in debates. A joke character shouldn’t win because it’s a joke. Squirrel Girl’s fights we’re in a holiday issue or something and I always assumed they weren’t canon. 

[Movie-Brat]

Except they are canon.