9:5 - Squirrel Girl vs. Anti-Monitor

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 9, ROUND 5

Squirrel Girl

Slot: The Team's Marvel Comics Character
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Squirrel Girl at this Wiki
Official Site: Marvel Entertainment

Anti-Monitor

Slot: The Team's DC Comics Character
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Anti-Monitor at this Wiki
Official Site: DC Comics

Battle Terrain
Location: Paris

[Peypeypeypey]

The Anti-Monitor is a multi-versal entity, far stronger than anything Squirrel Girl has defeated before. He has no real physical form that Squirrel Girl can defeat, and he can destroy infinite universes with his attacks. Nothing Squirrel Girl has done, even interpreting her to her most powerful self demonstrated, is anywhere near the Anti-Monitor level. I would also throw out that Marvel also has events similar to Crisis, and Squirrel Girl is never the one able to stop them from happening. Anti-Monitor should win here

[Fox]

Note that Anti-Monitor has a version more powerful than Tier 2, which is the cap for this.  So, we aren't talking about that.

One has powers that are so vast that they are beyond comprehension and one has powers that make the character unbeatable with no defined upper limit.

Toss-up for me.

[Peypeypeypey]

2 minutes ago, Fox said:

Note that Anti-Monitor has a version more powerful than Tier 2, which is the cap for this.  So, we aren't talking about that.

One has powers that are so vast that they are beyond comprehension and one has powers that make the character unbeatable with no defined upper limit.

Toss-up for me.

Similar to Darkseid, the "True Form" of the Anti-Monitor exists within the Anti-Matter universe. That version is not the one that destroyed all but 5 of the infinite DC Universes during the Crisis on Infinite Earths. The one that I'm talking about is the 2-A version, perfectly legal here

[Fox]

4 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Similar to Darkseid, the "True Form" of the Anti-Monitor exists within the Anti-Matter universe. That version is not the one that destroyed all but 5 of the infinite DC Universes during the Crisis on Infinite Earths. The one that I'm talking about is the 2-A version, perfectly legal here

Sure.  I wasn't attempting to counter your points.  I was just saying for other people who might be thinking about what Anti-Monitor is bringing to the table.

[IKA]

How ever Squirrel Girl solves this issue, it will be off screen. She has done countless things her abilities suggest she should not be able to do, and this will be no different.

[Magnamax]

10 minutes ago, IKA said:

How ever Squirrel Girl solves this issue, it will be off screen. She has done countless things her abilities suggest she should not be able to do, and this will be no different.

This isn’t good enough in my mind. Squirrel Girl has a very ill-defined ability that writers have granted her to be a joke character. From what I understand, it is specifically to poke fun at transitive “who would beat who” arguments comic book fans have. There is absolutely no reasonable amount of evidence to suggest she would win here.

 

Even taking her Thanos and Dr Doom feats, those characters are substantially less powerful than the Anti-Monitor. Squirrel Girl has no way to win this fight.

[Peypeypeypey]

23 minutes ago, IKA said:

How ever Squirrel Girl solves this issue, it will be off screen. She has done countless things her abilities suggest she should not be able to do, and this will be no different.

This is exactly why I hate discussions with Squirrel Girl. There is no off-screen, because it's not a Squirrel Girl comic. We all unanimously agree that feats and scalings are the best way to determine who wins in literally every other scenario with literally every other character. Last round, we collectively agreed that Flash would lose to Apocalypse despite the fact that, if it happened in a Flash comic, we all know 100% Flash would win, because going by feats and scalings, Flash just wasn't as strong. 

However, with Squirrel Girl, all that goes out the window and everyone starts treating it like it takes place in her comic so of course she's going to win. She always wins "off panel." Again, there is no panel. We're not discussing who would win in a Squirrel Girl comic, we're discussing who has better feats and who scales higher. Going by that metric, the same metric we use to judge every other fight that comes up, the Anti-Monitor scales far higher than anything Squirrel Girl has fought and it's honestly not even that close. She can't talk him down like she did to Galactus because he's just far more ruthless and evil than Galactus is. Going by how we collectively judge every single other match, Anti-Monitor should handily win

[comic_book_fan]

yeah squirrel girl should be  to powerful she can't lose  

 

[IKA]

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

This is exactly why I hate discussions with Squirrel Girl. There is no off-screen, because it's not a Squirrel Girl comic. We all unanimously agree that feats and scalings are the best way to determine who wins in literally every other scenario with literally every other character. Last round, we collectively agreed that Flash would lose to Apocalypse despite the fact that, if it happened in a Flash comic, we all know 100% Flash would win, because going by feats and scalings, Flash just wasn't as strong. 

However, with Squirrel Girl, all that goes out the window and everyone starts treating it like it takes place in her comic so of course she's going to win. She always wins "off panel." Again, there is no panel. We're not discussing who would win in a Squirrel Girl comic, we're discussing who has better feats and who scales higher. Going by that metric, the same metric we use to judge every other fight that comes up, the Anti-Monitor scales far higher than anything Squirrel Girl has fought and it's honestly not even that close. She can't talk him down like she did to Galactus because he's just far more ruthless and evil than Galactus is. Going by how we collectively judge every single other match, Anti-Monitor should handily win

I disagree, we should always assume the characters would act as they do in their respective media. Thus, feats alone do not always win a fight. 

[Peypeypeypey]

7 minutes ago, IKA said:

I disagree, we should always assume the characters would act as they do in their respective media. Thus, feats alone do not always win a fight. 

This is simply not true. I agree she should act like she would in her respective media, but that doesn't mean she should function like she would. 

Perhaps a more salient example of my point is Saitama. Saitama was drafted last season, and he is ostensibly a very similar character to Squirrel Girl. He's effective a "gag character" of sorts whose gimmick is that he can beat any opponent in one hit. The planetary Boros gets swatted away like he's nothing. However, no one tried to argue that Saitama would just win any fight he was in in one hit, and in fact he actually lost a few fights last season because we all agreed that while his feats were impressive, we had to take them at face value and not interpret the character as he would appear in his own media. We specifically don't look at characters as if they were in their own media because then heroes would win 99% of the matches against villains. If Batman fought Darkseid in a Batman comic, he would probably find some ridiculous way to win, but if they were up against each other on here, we would all agree that Batman, despite his plot armor, would lose. It's the exact same thing here with Squirrel Girl. She's not in her comic so she doesn't get her plot armor and auto-win button, and taking those away, she just isn't anywhere near as strong as the Anti-Monitor. Some people said last fight she was in that she would beat Goku Black, but she wouldn't necessarily run the category against the most OP abstract entities. If that's true, then Anti-Monitor is the test for it. He is on the level of the most powerful beings in these three categories, and he is demonstrably and handily more powerful than anything she's fought

[IKA]

28 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

This is simply not true. I agree she should act like she would in her respective media, but that doesn't mean she should function like she would. 

Perhaps a more salient example of my point is Saitama. Saitama was drafted last season, and he is ostensibly a very similar character to Squirrel Girl. He's effective a "gag character" of sorts whose gimmick is that he can beat any opponent in one hit. The planetary Boros gets swatted away like he's nothing. However, no one tried to argue that Saitama would just win any fight he was in in one hit, and in fact he actually lost a few fights last season because we all agreed that while his feats were impressive, we had to take them at face value and not interpret the character as he would appear in his own media. We specifically don't look at characters as if they were in their own media because then heroes would win 99% of the matches against villains. If Batman fought Darkseid in a Batman comic, he would probably find some ridiculous way to win, but if they were up against each other on here, we would all agree that Batman, despite his plot armor, would lose. It's the exact same thing here with Squirrel Girl. She's not in her comic so she doesn't get her plot armor and auto-win button, and taking those away, she just isn't anywhere near as strong as the Anti-Monitor. Some people said last fight she was in that she would beat Goku Black, but she wouldn't necessarily run the category against the most OP abstract entities. If that's true, then Anti-Monitor is the test for it. He is on the level of the most powerful beings in these three categories, and he is demonstrably and handily more powerful than anything she's fought

So by that logic, despite the fact the Batman has beaten Darkseid we would still have to vote against him in that fight because feats?

In Saitama's case he has visible feats and his fights are always in site to see. His Gag can only carry him so far because unlike Squirrel Girl, he is never the underdog.

She is, she should never win her fights, but almost always finds a way to pull it off, that is a fundamental part of her character and disregarding that would be unfair to several characters in CBUB and would throw "toon force" for example out the window which is something that everyone will argue is viable in these types of battles. 

[Peypeypeypey]

8 minutes ago, IKA said:

So by that logic, despite the fact the Batman has beaten Darkseid we would still have to vote against him in that fight because feats?

I'm not sure I understand this point. Batman hasn't beaten Darkseid in a 1-on-1 random encounter. If you're asking hypothetically, if he did beat him in a comic like that, would I still say we should vote for Darkseid, my answer would be it depends on the context of the fight in the comic book, but almost certainly yes, Darkseid should beat Batman no problem, and any comic book in which he doesn't would have to involve a lot of outside help, PIS, an ungodly amount of prep time, or most likely, all three of those things.

10 minutes ago, IKA said:

In Saitama's case he has visible feats and his fights are always in site to see. His Gag can only carry him so far because unlike Squirrel Girl, he is never the underdog.

You're just drawing a 100% arbitrary line in the sand here. What are you even talking about? How does his fights being on screen detract from his gag? Saitama's gag is that he can beat any character in 1 hit. That's it. Him being seen doing has nothing to do with his gag not having defined limits in the series itself. Him not being an underdog has nothing to do with his gag not being taken into account last tournament. I genuinely don't understand what you're saying with this point. We all agree that despite his "beat everything in one hit" gag, he doesn't just automatically get to win every fight in one hit on here. The same should be true for Squirrel Girl. 

13 minutes ago, IKA said:

She is, she should never win her fights, but almost always finds a way to pull it off, that is a fundamental part of her character and disregarding that would be unfair to several characters in CBUB and would throw "toon force" for example out the window which is something that everyone will argue is viable in these types of battles. 

It's not unfair, it's looking at the character as she is portrayed, instead of assuming this takes place in her story where she's unbeatable. This has literally nothing to do with toon force and I don't know why you're bringing it up. Toon force is an entirely different thing, and one that doesn't come in to play here at all. 

[IKA]

A ) Fair enough - Though Batman has beaten Darkseid on numerous occasions it does depend on the set up. But if you are willing to humor the possibility that he can in fact beat Darkseid then again feats alone do not win a fight and we must always assume they are fighting as they would in their media.

B ) I don't think it's arbitrary at all, we can see how Saitama performs, we have seen him take damage, and we have seen him fail to defeat someone in One Punch, thus it shows he does have an upper limit. At that point it would be up to the reader to interpret where that limit lies. In Squirrel Girl's case we do not see how she accomplishes these feats, just that she has done them, and with no visible upper limit in site and taking Marvel's own websites stats on Squirrel Girl I would say she may not have an upper limit to what she can do.

 

C ) While toon force is not directly connected to this fight, it is however atleast relatable to the argument as they are both no definable yet debatable in battles. Hence my point.

[Peypeypeypey]

20 minutes ago, IKA said:

A ) Fair enough - Though Batman has beaten Darkseid on numerous occasions it does depend on the set up. But if you are willing to humor the possibility that he can in fact beat Darkseid then again feats alone do not win a fight and we must always assume they are fighting as they would in their media.

Context matters and is important for interpreting feats, but these battles occur without any context for the fights themselves. If the setting was "this fight takes place in a Squirrel Girl comic," then I would agree that Squirrel Girl would win, but it's on a neutral battle ground and without the writers making her automatically win, going just off of what she has demonstrably been able to do, she falls well short of beating Anti-Monitor

22 minutes ago, IKA said:

B ) I don't think it's arbitrary at all, we can see how Saitama performs, we have seen him take damage, and we have seen him fail to defeat someone in One Punch, thus it shows he does have an upper limit. At that point it would be up to the reader to interpret where that limit lies. In Squirrel Girl's case we do not see how she accomplishes these feats, just that she has done them, and with no visible upper limit in site and taking Marvel's own websites stats on Squirrel Girl I would say she may not have an upper limit to what she can do.

When did he fail to defeat someone in One-Punch Man? The only person I remember him not one-shotting while taking them somewhat seriously is Boros, and even then, he did totally splatter him with one hit, Boros just recovered because he had incredibly strong regen that Saitama didn't know about. Saitama's second punch utterly destroyed him despite that regen. Saitama intentionally only tries as hard as he needs to because his personality is that he's lazy. That's not an inhibitor on his power, it's a personality flaw.

More to the point though, this is just plain and simple No-Limits Fallacy. Just because we haven't seen her limit, doesn't mean that her limit doesn't exist. I think we can all agree that she can't beat TOAA. It's "Above All." She reasonably also can't beat Death, at least not in a one-on-one fight scenario. We can probably all agree that she isn't on the level of the universal abstract characters. So she definitely has limits. And Anti-Monitor is genuinely right up there with those beings in terms of raw power (maybe not TOAA, but definitely the universal abstracts). She's also shown no resistance to high-level hax, of which Anti-Monitor has plenty, and she can't hit beings that are incorporeal as far as we know, unless someone has a feat to back up that she can. The characters she's beaten (Thanos, Dr. Doom, Fin Fang Foom, etc.), while undeniably heavy hitters, are still corporeal beings that can be hit. We have no evidence that she could even touch the Anti-Monitor's Anti Matter body. 

30 minutes ago, IKA said:

C ) While toon force is not directly connected to this fight, it is however atleast relatable to the argument as they are both no definable yet debatable in battles. Hence my point.

 I can understand where you're coming from, but the problem with Toon Force isn't that we can't see it, it's that it is illogical, in the most pure version of that word possible. It defies logic. Could Bugs Bunny defeat Thanos? Maybe. We've seen him redraw himself when he gets destroyed. We've seen him pull all kinds of wacky, physics and reality defying shenanigans. Squirrel Girl, on the other hand, does not have feats like that. We just don't see what she does, we have no indication that she's doing anything other than just physically overpowering the characters she fights. She doesn't have the chaotic, causality-altering powers that Bugs has, and if you think she does, then you need to prove it 

[Macklemore]

Yeah, I think I have to agree with Anti-Monitor winning this battle as well. Squirrel Girl has not been seen helping out massively whenever anything important is happening (Thanos with the infinity gauntlet, Beyonder creating Battleworld, Amatsu Mikaboshi eating reality, Doom becoming God Emperor,) not a single event has her actually being even remotely close. Anti-Monitor, who is on the level of all these beings in his own universe, would smite her. Plain and simple.

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Squirrel Girl: 2
Anti-Monitor: 9