9:6 - Infected vs. The Hand

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 9, ROUND 6

Infected

Slot: The Team's Cannon Fodder
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Infected at this Wiki
Official Site: Sony

The Hand

Slot: The Team's Cannon Fodder
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about The Hand at this Wiki
Official Site: Marvel Comics

Battle Terrain
Cannon Fodder Challenge: Medieval Reenactment

[DSkillz]

Yeah, I don't see zombies even thinking about putting on costumes and weapons. 

In case anyone questions the Hand's capabilities in this, though, part of a ninja's skillset is disguise and infiltration. I'm sure more than a few Hand have posed as knights for missions.

[Fox]

2 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

Yeah, I don't see zombies even thinking about putting on costumes and weapons. 

In case anyone questions the Hand's capabilities in this, though, part of a ninja's skillset is disguise and infiltration. I'm sure more than a few Hand have posed as knights for missions.

I'm sure the Infected will be suited up by Khazan's cadre of trained handlers before being loosed on the field.

Gonna be hard for them zombies to bite anyone with metal helmets on their head, tho.

[Peypeypeypey]

Yeah, I actually think a medieval scenario would be one of the worst scenarios for zombies. Far fewer densely populated towns to spread in, and if they come up against an army, it's way harder for them to bite someone. That's only tangentially relevant to this fight, but they definitely lose in my eyes

[IKA]

The infected aren't zombies and in this situation, power comes into play. As the infected would include bloaters which I don"t believe any sword will hurt and will eventually end up infecting the entire other team. And if the infected has a Rat King... The Hand wouldn't even have a shot at victory.

 

This is one scenario I would (if Fox's scenario is a given) easily say the Infected win.

[Peypeypeypey]

28 minutes ago, IKA said:

The infected aren't zombies and in this situation, power comes into play. As the infected would include bloaters which I don"t believe any sword will hurt and will eventually end up infecting the entire other team. And if the infected has a Rat King... The Hand wouldn't even have a shot at victory.

 

This is one scenario I would (if Fox's scenario is a given) easily say the Infected win.

I think the idea of "cannon fodder" is that it's just the regular ol' infected. Things like Bloaters and Rat Kings aren't what anyone would call cannon fodder. The Bloater is a literal tank. The Battle Droids from Star Wars don't get the Super Battle Droids and all the other types of Star Wars droids, so I think the same applies here

[IKA]

I might agree of it wasn't for the fact the person is able to take down multiple bloaters on their own. When I chose the infected I was intending for it to be all of the infected. 

[Bergy_Berg]

There are "Historical Accounts" from the end of the Zombie Survival Guide that chronicles how Romans used their tactics to put down a massive zombie horde with limited casualties. Shields up, poke the brains.

There may be some additional difficulty in killing the infected if they have helmets, but if we take this to be well armored folks on both sides then weaponry will include anti-armor tools, like maces.

[DSkillz]

3 hours ago, IKA said:

The infected aren't zombies and in this situation, power comes into play. As the infected would include bloaters which I don"t believe any sword will hurt and will eventually end up infecting the entire other team. And if the infected has a Rat King... The Hand wouldn't even have a shot at victory.

Ah, but let's not forget that the Hand are used to dealing with more powerful foes than the Infected. I'm willing to bet the standard Hand ninja is also better trained at killing than most of the characters from the game, even with medieval armor and weaponry. They likely even know how to find the weak points in a knight's armor to penetrate it.

In fact, the game's wiki states that Joel was able to kill a Bloated with a machete. It's a pretty safe bet that weapons such as a broadsword, a mace, or a flail would be even more effective (after penetrating said armor, of course). Hell, at least some standard Hand would definitely be good archers, and some would be perched at effective vantage points to pick off Infected, even through the armor.

2 hours ago, IKA said:

I might agree of it wasn't for the fact the person is able to take down multiple bloaters on their own. When I chose the infected I was intending for it to be all of the infected. 

And again, I willing to bet that the average Hand is better trained at killing.

I'm personally wondering if the Rat Kings should be allowed, since as mentioned, Fox did state that only standard members of cannon fodder were allowed. Even then, though, the Hand could use flaming arrows, explosives, or even maybe even catapults to take them out.

[IKA]

3 hours ago, DSkillz said:

Ah, but let's not forget that the Hand are used to dealing with more powerful foes than the Infected. I'm willing to bet the standard Hand ninja is also better trained at killing than most of the characters from the game, even with medieval armor and weaponry. They likely even know how to find the weak points in a knight's armor to penetrate it.

In fact, the game's wiki states that Joel was able to kill a Bloated with a machete. It's a pretty safe bet that weapons such as a broadsword, a mace, or a flail would be even more effective (after penetrating said armor, of course). Hell, at least some standard Hand would definitely be good archers, and some would be perched at effective vantage points to pick off Infected, even through the armor.

And again, I willing to bet that the average Hand is better trained at killing.

I'm personally wondering if the Rat Kings should be allowed, since as mentioned, Fox did state that only standard members of cannon fodder were allowed. Even then, though, the Hand could use flaming arrows, explosives, or even maybe even catapults to take them out.

While all of that is true, I have no doubt that the Hand could kill a bloater and maybe even the Rat King given enough time, the issue has to do with the spores as breathing the spores from the bloaters will kill them. Not to mention of they could grab the Hand which is likely with them having to get up close, the bloaters would be able to tear their limbs off.

Since Fox is the one in charge of these seasons, I'd say it's his call if the infected include all infected as I intended or just the basic runners.

Because Infected would include: Runners, Clickers, Stalkers, Bloaters, Rat King.

[DSkillz]

25 minutes ago, IKA said:

While all of that is true, I have no doubt that the Hand could kill a bloater and maybe even the Rat King given enough time, the issue has to do with the spores as breathing the spores from the bloaters will kill them. Not to mention of they could grab the Hand which is likely with them having to get up close, the bloaters would be able to tear their limbs off.

The danger of the spores could be countered by strategy. The Hand would kill their share of Infected up close. The armor the Infected are wearing may prevent their spores from spreading as fast as they normally do, giving the Hand more time to kill them up close than the game characters did. 

As the Hand notice that some of their own are starting to get affected by the spores, though, they could possibly retreat, hide away in parts of the arena, and use guerilla tactics and have their archers and makeshift catapult operators to fire away at a safe distance.

[Fox]

34 minutes ago, IKA said:

Since Fox is the one in charge of these seasons, I'd say it's his call if the infected include all infected as I intended or just the basic runners.

Because Infected would include: Runners, Clickers, Stalkers, Bloaters, Rat King.

Well, I don't know that I'm really in charge of anything per-se.  Plus, I've never played the game so I don't know about the Infected.

But let's look at what the definition of the Slot was:

A generic group of disposable stereotypes - often depicted as being easily defeated like Pirates, Ninjas and Storm Troopers.

And I think the key word in there is "generic".  Not a lot of differentiation. 

I see the argument for the Infected seems to revolve around differentiation - having powerful Specialists and Bosses in the mix, I guess.  That wasn't really the slot concept.

I'd say it's up to the individual voters if they feel they want to take that differentiation into account.

Is this helpful?

[IKA]

For help in context, The infection is based on the real life fungus that infects ants called Cordyceps which through the use of spores takes over the hosts body and causes them to try and spread more spores. Runners are the most basic infected, they don't bite, they actually just try to beat you to death. Clickers would be next, the are blind but have echo location they are extremely strong and in the game at least being hit by one results in instant death regardless of difficulty. Stalkers would be the next category, they're much more like the runners, but they try to hide and flank you from behind, on top of that upon dying they leaves spores behind infecting anyone who breathes it in. Infection takes only a few hours to drive someone insane before they too can no longer resist. Beyond that we have Bloaters which could be considered a boss character, they have developed enough fungus on their body to essentially be a walking tank, they actually rip bit of their own body off to throw at enemies spreading spores throughout the area. Finally the Rat King Which is essentially all of them put together and can spilt into two part, one more like a bloater and the other more like a stalker.

Well, taking the ones considered bosses out that would still leave Runners, clickers, and Stalkers. The real threat then would still be stalkers who can spread spores upon death. 

I guess it would come down to could they finish the job before being infected themselves.

[Peypeypeypey]

I think we're getting off topic anyway. The challenge as I read it is that they are reenacting a medieval battle, not actually fighting one. Is that correct? Because if so, it doesn't actually matter who would win in a fight if it were to break out into a genuine melee battle, all that matters is that the Hand would be much better at actually replicating a medieval battle and could feasibly win using traditional tactics. If the Infected do attack them, it's either a DQ because it's just supposed to be a non-fatal reenactment, or the Hand will be smart and organized enough to repel the attack

[IKA]

14 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I think we're getting off topic anyway. The challenge as I read it is that they are reenacting a medieval battle, not actually fighting one. Is that correct? Because if so, it doesn't actually matter who would win in a fight if it were to break out into a genuine melee battle, all that matters is that the Hand would be much better at actually replicating a medieval battle and could feasibly win using traditional tactics. If the Infected do attack them, it's either a DQ because it's just supposed to be a non-fatal reenactment, or the Hand will be smart and organized enough to repel the attack

Is there a battle style that wouldn't have been allowed in Medieval times, I would think all I listed is still fair game.

[Mercenaryblade]

This is a reenactment, meaning no one actually dies.

Hand wins by default because zombies can't be coordinated into participating in a reenactment. 

[IKA]

Nah people died by plague all the time in medieval times. I think they win be default.

[DSkillz]

17 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I think we're getting off topic anyway. The challenge as I read it is that they are reenacting a medieval battle, not actually fighting one. Is that correct? Because if so, it doesn't actually matter who would win in a fight if it were to break out into a genuine melee battle, all that matters is that the Hand would be much better at actually replicating a medieval battle and could feasibly win using traditional tactics. If the Infected do attack them, it's either a DQ because it's just supposed to be a non-fatal reenactment, or the Hand will be smart and organized enough to repel the attack

That's actually a good point. I got so caught up in the debate about abilities that I missed the "reenactment" part. The Hand's odds are good-to-great either way, though.

1 hour ago, IKA said:

Nah people died by plague all the time in medieval times. I think they win be default.

Eh, difference between medieval times and now is that people these days are more aware of the dangers of contagions and can take precautions accordingly. 

[Mercenaryblade]

19 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

Eh, difference between medieval times and now is that people these days are more aware of the dangers of contagions and can take precautions accordingly. 

Uhhhhh.... have you seen these idiots today and Covid? 

[IKA]

1 hour ago, Mercenaryblade said:

Uhhhhh.... have you seen these idiots today and Covid? 

Exactly, plus what can be a better reenactment than reality repeating itself.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[DSkillz]

3 hours ago, Mercenaryblade said:

Uhhhhh.... have you seen these idiots today and Covid? 

You kind of have a point, though the majority of people do at least try to take proper precautions.

I should bring up, though, that the Marvel Universe deals with contagions, earthly and otherwise, on a regular basis, and both heroic and villainous factions often figure out ways to by rid of them or utilize them to their benefit. 

For example, a faction of the Hand employed Omega Red for a time. One of Red's powers is that he emits death spores that can kill in minutes, so in order to work with him without getting themselves killed, that had to be at least some type of protocol in place. 

So yes, the Hand have experience in dealing with spores and the like.

[IKA]

11 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

You kind of have a point, though the majority of people do at least try to take proper precautions.

I should bring up, though, that the Marvel Universe deals with contagions, earthly and otherwise, on a regular basis, and both heroic and villainous factions often figure out ways to by rid of them or utilize them to their benefit. 

For example, a faction of the Hand employed Omega Red for a time. One of Red's powers is that he emits death spores that can kill in minutes, so in order to work with him without getting themselves killed, that had to be at least some type of protocol in place. 

So yes, the Hand have experience in dealing with spores and the like.

They were prepped for that, they wouldn't be in this case.

[DSkillz]

15 minutes ago, IKA said:

They were prepped for that, they wouldn't be in this case.

The Hand still has knowledge in how to deal with spores, the most effective of which would be to create some distance between and the Infected. For there, they can tag them with the aforementioned arrows and catapulted projectiles.

[IKA]

Just now, DSkillz said:

The Hand still has knowledge in how to deal with spores, the most effective of which would be to create some distance between and the Infected. For there, they can tag them with the aforementioned arrows and catapulted projectiles.

Again having knowledge and being prepped for are two completely different things. Plus unlike zombies the infected are fast and will give chase.

[DSkillz]

6 minutes ago, IKA said:

Again having knowledge and being prepped for are two completely different things. Plus unlike zombies the infected are fast and will give chase.

In which case, the Hand still have experience with spores and the like and know how to deal with them. They have also dealt with fast opponents in their universe. And, unlike the Infected, the Hand would actually try to use medieval weaponry and tactics, such as setting medieval traps (spike pits, mace traps, etc.) around the area before and during the battle to lure Infected into. Ancient ninja and medieval tactics did overlap to an extent, so the Hand would likely have the knowledge to utilize them.

But, since we may again be getting away from the spirit of merely reenacting a medieval battle instead of fighting, I'll once again reiterate that the Hand, being a thinking, tactical group (and it's pretty likely some Hand have posed as knights, kings, etc. at medieval reenactments for missions, so experience might be a factor), would be much more likely to stick to the letter of the medieval atmosphere.