9:9 - Kobolds vs. The Vorcha

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 9, ROUND 9

Kobolds

Slot: The Team's Cannon Fodder
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Kobolds at this Wiki
Official Site: Wizards Of the Coast

The Vorcha

Slot: The Team's Cannon Fodder
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about The Vorcha at this Wiki
Official Site: Bioware

Battle Terrain
Cannon Fodder Challenge: Medieval Reenactment

[Fox]

Both 2 time winners, hum.

I am leaning Kobolds as they are used to Medieval type weapons and tactics.  Also they come in an assortment of low-level D&D classes which could give an edge.

Now, some important quotes about why this is a bad match for the Vorcha.

See: https://masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/Vorcha

"The vorcha have no formal military force to speak of."

"their lack of any government has precluded the formation of armies and fleets"

"Many vorcha are employed as cannon-fodder ... where their inexperience further shortens their brief lifespans"

 

Say what you will, Kobolds are at least intelligent and organized enough to form into battle groups with tactics.

[Peypeypeypey]

23 minutes ago, Fox said:

"The vorcha have no formal military force to speak of."

"their lack of any government has precluded the formation of armies and fleets"

"Many vorcha are employed as cannon-fodder ... where their inexperience further shortens their brief lifespans"

 

Say what you will, Kobolds are at least intelligent and organized enough to form into battle groups with tactics.

All 3 of these things are equally true about Kobolds. At least in the typical D&D Universes, Bugbears employ Kobolds by the thousands, they don't have a military nor are they organized fighters, and they don't have a government either. Vorcha are also probably a little bigger and definitely hardier. The main advantage the Kobolds theoretically have is that they have experience with similar technology, but they have 0 experience with formal military combat, again in the regular 5e Universe at least, so that doesn't help them at all. They don't fight by forming shield walls and such, they just sort of run at a problem and sometimes set traps. The Vorcha would win by being slightly bigger, much more vicious, and much hardier. While yes, they are used as cannon fodder, they are used as cannon fodder in a universe with much better tech and are able to shrug off a surprising amount of damage. While I know I've been arguing that the more intelligent group wins this category, neither of these groups are smart enough to form a proper military defense, and in that situation, the meaner, nastier, bigger, and more physically strong group wins

[Fox]

13 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

All 3 of these things are equally true about Kobolds.

Except not so much.  See: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kobold

Let's pick out some descriptive words about Kobolds from the above.

• Diligent
• Cunning
• Meticulously Planned
• Industrious
• Lawful Evil

They live up to 125 years and they aren't stupid. The ultimate goal of the kobold race was to conquer as much land as possible.

 

 

[Peypeypeypey]

5 minutes ago, Fox said:

Except not so much.  See: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kobold

Let's pick out some descriptive words about Kobolds from the above.

• Diligent
• Cunning
• Meticulously Planned
• Industrious
• Lawful Evil

They live up to 125 years and they aren't stupid. The ultimate goal of the kobold race was to conquer as much land as possible.

But even that wiki doesn't mention anything about formal military, which was my main point. Like, yeah, they can set-up traps and like to set ambushes, which makes them smarter than the Vorcha for sure, but they're neither smart nor organized enough to form military ranks and fight as a cohesive unit. I wouldn't exactly call tribal societies a formal government, so my point stands completely. All 3 things (employed as cannon fodder, no formal military, no government) are true of both Vorcha and Kobolds. There's no reason to assume the Kobolds get prep time, so they can't really set traps, and all things being equal, I would take the more mean, more hardy, and more aggressive fighters in a medieval battle if neither side is able to form proper military ranks and fight like as a cohesive unit, which Kobolds are mechanically and canonically not able to do

[Fox]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  Lawful Evil is short-hand for organized, and Kobolds for sure form cohesive battle groups using tactics with mixed-arms / magic. 

I've played enough D&D to know to be wary of them at low level. 

[Peypeypeypey]

6 minutes ago, Fox said:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  Lawful Evil is short-hand for organized, and Kobolds for sure form cohesive battle groups using tactics with mixed-arms / magic. 

I've played enough D&D to know to be wary of them at low level. 

They are organized in that they organize into smaller groups, set up excellent traps, and have tribal societies. But tribal societies are not the same as a formal government, and setting traps isn't the same as having a formal military. Which, again, the Vorcha don't do either, but Vorcha Mercenary groups are about as organized as Kobold battle groups in terms of variety of attacks and combat strategy. Kobolds are undeniably smarter and more cohesive, but neither is going to be employing any military strategies from the medieval era very effectively. Again, with no prep time, the Kobolds can't set traps anywhere near as effectively. 

[Macklemore]

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

But tribal societies are not the same as a formal government,

I'm under the impression that having tribal societies is just fine when it comes to warring, you don't really need a government to go to war.

[Peypeypeypey]

1 minute ago, Macklemore said:

I'm under the impression that having tribal societies is just fine when it comes to warring, you don't really need a government to go to war.

Sure, but I'm talking about formal government. The Vorcha also have clans which are very functionally similar to Kobold tribes, but they lack a formal governing body of all Vorcha like the human Alliance, which is what the Mass Effect Wiki was talking about when it was originally referenced

[Peypeypeypey]

Sorry to double post, but I want to clarify something that I should have pushed back more on in my first post, because it's very relevant here. The Vorcha don't have a formal military, that's true, but in this context that just means that they don't have a unified, planet-wide military force under which all, or at least most, Vorcha are protected by and loyal to. This exact statement is true about Kobolds, but it doesn't mean anything in D&D because literally no race is unified in the way the rest of the Mass Effect races are (I'm sure there is some exception out there someone could point out, but my larger point stands: by Mass Effect definitions, even the most organized, lawful groups in D&D like would lack a "formal military," especially the Kobolds). The thing about medieval combat is that it favors three things: rigid discipline, tactics, and physicality. Kobolds have an advantage in tactics, but not really in a way they can actively use in this situation because their tactics are all about setting traps and springing ambushes. Assuming they're meeting in actual medieval combat, they will be just as inexperienced as the Vorcha. As for discipline, Kobolds really don't have military discipline at all. Like I said last time, they simply don't fight the way medieval human armies would fight, so they're at a massive disadvantage here. And in terms of physicality, the Vorcha are strong for their size, highly adaptable (to the point where their skin hardens when they take damage, and they train by beating each other and getting beaten to make their skin more resistant to damage), and are far more vicious. In a head on, medieval style battle with ranks and shield walls and all that, the Kobolds wouldn't have tactics at the ready to fight off a bigger, meaner foe, they wouldn't have the discipline to fight as a cohesive unit, and they would be physically outmatched.

[DSkillz]

Hey, could this possibly be merely a reenactment instead of an actual battle?  

[Mercenaryblade]

19 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

Hey, could this possibly be merely a reenactment instead of an actual battle?  

Indeed, it says reenactment in the banner. 

[Peypeypeypey]

3 hours ago, DSkillz said:

Hey, could this possibly be merely a reenactment instead of an actual battle?  

No one has ever really explained what that means though. Reenactments aren't like a judged sport as far as I can find, they're recreations of battles, so as far as I can tell for this scenario, literally nothing I've said is disputed if it's a reenactment, other than the fact that the Vorcha and the Kobolds would be using prop weapons. It would still favor the Vorcha's physicality. The only thing I could find on Wikipedia about combative reenactments is: "Due to the number of participants involved, most reenacted battles cannot be choreographed in any detail, and safety guidelines or "combat rules" are imposed on participants instead, prohibiting most realistic actions. Some reenactment battles take the form of a competition, where the two "armies" try to defeat each other within the actions permitted by the combat rules." Under those circumstances, literally everything I said still applies, and making traps is probably against those rules anyway, so it leans even more heavily in the Vorcha's side

Is it a judgement of who can recreate a specific battle the best? Because if so the Kobolds would probably win but it also wouldn't really be a competition in any real sense. Are they given instructions on medieval combat and judged based on who can do it better? Because that seems like a very bizarre contest just in general. 

[Mercenaryblade]

4 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

No one has ever really explained what that means though. Reenactments aren't like a judged sport as far as I can find, they're recreations of battles, so as far as I can tell for this scenario, literally nothing I've said is disputed if it's a reenactment, other than the fact that the Vorcha and the Kobolds would be using prop weapons. It would still favor the Vorcha's physicality. The only thing I could find on Wikipedia about combative reenactments is: "Due to the number of participants involved, most reenacted battles cannot be choreographed in any detail, and safety guidelines or "combat rules" are imposed on participants instead, prohibiting most realistic actions. Some reenactment battles take the form of a competition, where the two "armies" try to defeat each other within the actions permitted by the combat rules." Under those circumstances, literally everything I said still applies, and making traps is probably against those rules anyway, so it leans even more heavily in the Vorcha's side

Is it a judgement of who can recreate a specific battle the best? Because if so the Kobolds would probably win but it also wouldn't really be a competition in any real sense. Are they given instructions on medieval combat and judged based on who can do it better? Because that seems like a very bizarre contest just in general. 

The prop weapons are usually just blunted steel weapons. At least that's what we used in my renfaire days whenever we fought the 30 years war. Those battles were unscripted, but then again we weren't as organized as some groups like here

Epic Medieval Reenactment [1000+ Reenactors] -- Hastings 2012 - YouTube

 

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Kobolds: 5
The Vorcha: 1