9:10 - Batman (Earth-31) vs. The Riddler

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 9, ROUND 10

Batman (Earth-31)

Slot: The Team's Master Detective
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Batman (Earth-31) at this Wiki
Official Site: DC Comics

The Riddler

Slot: The Team's Master Criminal
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about The Riddler at this Wiki
Official Site: D.C Comics

Battle Terrain
Detective Challenge: The Death Trap Challenge

[Peypeypeypey]

Feels like an unfortunate pull for the Riddler, but honestly, I'm not entirely sure. This Batman isn't quite as smart as others, and he's very old. If Riddler is in his prime, he's definitely going to be "smarter" in the sense of being quick-witted, and he knows Batman well. I think Riddler actually has a shot here 

[Magnamax]

40 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Feels like an unfortunate pull for the Riddler, but honestly, I'm not entirely sure. This Batman isn't quite as smart as others, and he's very old. If Riddler is in his prime, he's definitely going to be "smarter" in the sense of being quick-witted, and he knows Batman well. I think Riddler actually has a shot here 

Maybe, it depends on whether this is the Dark Knight Returns version of the Earth-31 Batman or just a composite Earth-31 Batman. The picture isn’t anything I recognize from TDKR and we have plenty of stories from this particular Batman’s universe. All that being said, this Batman isn’t smart in a detective sense, but he is very good at improvisation with Miller loving the idea that Batman can just win against any opponent with quick thinking. The only time The Riddler has impressively outmaneuvered Batman, that I know of, was Hush—and that was under a very specific set of circumstances. I think the Riddler could have a better in condition, but I’m leaning Batman while wanting to hear more arguments.

[Macklemore]

Even so, any one Batman has experience with the Riddler, and they know their Riddlers in and out. I doubt it would be anything too much for this Batman to handle, even if he is a bit more brutish, than most? I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he could do it, even if Riddler has a bigger shot against this specific Batman than any other.

[SSJRuss]

Riddler at his best could probably pull this off, if for nothing just the one time.

[Pizzaguy2995]

On 5/30/2021 at 1:46 PM, Magnamax said:

Maybe, it depends on whether this is the Dark Knight Returns version of the Earth-31 Batman or just a composite Earth-31 Batman. The picture isn’t anything I recognize from TDKR and we have plenty of stories from this particular Batman’s universe. All that being said, this Batman isn’t smart in a detective sense, but he is very good at improvisation with Miller loving the idea that Batman can just win against any opponent with quick thinking. The only time The Riddler has impressively outmaneuvered Batman, that I know of, was Hush—and that was under a very specific set of circumstances. I think the Riddler could have a better in condition, but I’m leaning Batman while wanting to hear more arguments.

C’mon dude I think that when this Batman was added to the database I don’t think whoever added it was thinking of the All-Stars Batman. When Old Man Logan is put in a matchup would it be fair for someone to point out that at the beginning of his novel he was a young man and therefore we should view him as being in his prime? I think we can safely say this is TDKR Batman. BTW I think the picture was during Bruce’s fight with The Mutant Leader.

[Peypeypeypey]

1 hour ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

C’mon dude I think that when this Batman was added to the database I don’t think whoever added it was thinking of the All-Stars Batman. When Old Man Logan is put in a matchup would it be fair for someone to point out that at the beginning of his novel he was a young man and therefore we should view him as being in his prime? I think we can safely say this is TDKR Batman. BTW I think the picture was during Bruce’s fight with The Mutant Leader.

There's a big difference between your example and what we're talking about here. Old Man Logan can't do those feats because he's old, physically weak compared to his prime, and his healing factor is giving out. So he simply no longer scales to his past self in a physical sense. However, this Batman hasn't really shown any sign of mentally slowing down in his old age. Unless you can prove that he has, it's canonically the same character, so it makes sense that he should have access to those old feats. We didn't track down the series that Riddler picture was from and give him feats from only that series because that's silly. They're canonically the same Batman, why wouldn't he have those feats?

[Fox]

Sorry but old bodies simply do not work as well as young bodies.

Some day, when you are old and try to do the feats you did when you were young, then you will understand.  Likely, you will injure yourself in the process.

It's ridiculous to even argue that Old Batman can do what Young Batman can.  But, if you haven't experienced old age personally, then I guess you wouldn't have a reference for it.

Going with Riddler.

[Magnamax]

14 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

C’mon dude I think that when this Batman was added to the database I don’t think whoever added it was thinking of the All-Stars Batman. When Old Man Logan is put in a matchup would it be fair for someone to point out that at the beginning of his novel he was a young man and therefore we should view him as being in his prime? I think we can safely say this is TDKR Batman. BTW I think the picture was during Bruce’s fight with The Mutant Leader.

Pey already pointed out the problems with the Old Man Logan comparisons. The Earth 31 Batman has appeared in several stories aside from TDKR, I think Batman vs. Spawn and Batman: Year One both are also that Batman. All-Star Batman and Robin has something like ten volumes, so that even has more established feats than The Dark Knight Returns. Either way, even if it's the older version of Batman, he still has a lot of feats that can be weighed in this fight. 

It looks like the picture is the cover of the Absolute version of TDKR/Dark Knight Strikes 

 

 

 

 

Reverse-Image

[Pizzaguy2995]

22 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

There's a big difference between your example and what we're talking about here. Old Man Logan can't do those feats because he's old, physically weak compared to his prime, and his healing factor is giving out. So he simply no longer scales to his past self in a physical sense. However, this Batman hasn't really shown any sign of mentally slowing down in his old age. Unless you can prove that he has, it's canonically the same character, so it makes sense that he should have access to those old feats. We didn't track down the series that Riddler picture was from and give him feats from only that series because that's silly. They're canonically the same Batman, why wouldn't he have those feats?

Remember when he lost the fight with The Mutant Leader? Are you really telling me the young punk would have bodied a prime Batman? C’mon dude it’s literally written in the synopsis that Bats is struggling with the physical limitations that come with old age:

[Pizzaguy2995]

 

9 hours ago, Magnamax said:

Pey already pointed out the problems with the Old Man Logan comparisons. The Earth 31 Batman has appeared in several stories aside from TDKR, I think Batman vs. Spawn and Batman: Year One both are also that Batman. All-Star Batman and Robin has something like ten volumes, so that even has more established feats than The Dark Knight Returns. Either way, even if it's the older version of Batman, he still has a lot of feats that can be weighed in this fight. 

It looks like the picture is the cover of the Absolute version of TDKR/Dark Knight Strikes

Yeah and like I told Pey the literally plot synopsis of TDKR spells out that Bats is struggling with the disadvantages of being old, just like Old Man Logan. So again since this version of Batman was added to the CBUB website as the old man version we saw in TDKR, I just think it’s a little out of bounds that we treat him like he’s in his prime. Personally, I think we should ask Venom 2009 whether the TDKR Batman was his intended pick or whether he intended to pick a composite Miller comic universe Batman. This was Venom 2009 pick right?

[Peypeypeypey]

17 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Remember when he lost the fight with The Mutant Leader? Are you really telling me the young punk would have bodied a prime Batman? C’mon dude it’s literally written in the synopsis that Bats is struggling with the physical limitations that come with old age:

 

10 hours ago, Fox said:

Sorry but old bodies simply do not work as well as young bodies.

Some day, when you are old and try to do the feats you did when you were young, then you will understand.  Likely, you will injure yourself in the process.

It's ridiculous to even argue that Old Batman can do what Young Batman can.  But, if you haven't experienced old age personally, then I guess you wouldn't have a reference for it.

Going with Riddler.

I specifically said Batman has shown no sign of mentally slowing down. I wasn't talking about his physical strength, I was clearly talking about his intellect, which is very much in tact. In the DKR, he fights against his usual rogues gallery and Superman and beats them all by outsmarting them (except for the Joker who he does just sort of snap the neck of). Riddler doesn't build traps that test physical strength (at least not usually). He is a villain that likes to prove how much smarter he is than people, and he would give Batman an escape route from his trap that relies on Batman's quick wit and intellect rather than his physical strength, which is obviously not what it used to be

EDIT: I also wanted to edit to clarify that I think Batman is still at a big disadvantage in this fight. As I said in my initial comment, I like the Riddler's chances here unless someone can convince me otherwise. I just think this Batman should have access to all of his feats relevant to the topic at hand, and those would include feats from his past that may involve using his detective skills. 

[Pizzaguy2995]

1 minute ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I specifically said Batman has shown no sign of mentally slowing down. I wasn't talking about his physical strength, I was clearly talking about his intellect, which is very much in tact. In the DKR, he fights against his usual rogues gallery and Superman and beats them all by outsmarting them (except for the Joker who he does just sort of snap the neck of). Riddler doesn't build traps that test physical strength (at least not usually). He is a villain that likes to prove how much smarter he is than people, and he would give Batman an escape route from his trap that relies on Batman's quick wit and intellect rather than his physical strength, which is obviously not what it used to be

I don’t know, from what I remember lots of Riddler’s death traps do require at least certain levels of speed and endurance, something old Bats has shown to struggle with.

[Magnamax]

9 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

 

Yeah and like I told Pey the literally plot synopsis of TDKR spells out that Bats is struggling with the disadvantages of being old, just like Old Man Logan. So again since this version of Batman was added to the CBUB website as the old man version we saw in TDKR, I just think it’s a little out of bounds that we treat him like he’s in his prime. Personally, I think we should ask Venom 2009 whether the TDKR Batman was his intended pick or whether he intended to pick a composite Miller comic universe Batman. This was Venom 2009 pick right?

My point has been that the Earth-31 Batman has more feats than TDKR and that Venom could argue it is a composite version of that Batman. Either way, he has access to the same feats, since it is the same Batman.

 I also think TDKR Batman is being very much undersold. I accept that he’s old, but in that story (and the sequels) he’s still very much able to perform physical acts that would get him out of a death trap. The scenario also seems to require the villain to lure them to the death trap in the first place, which may be difficult for the riddler to do. I don’t remember a death trap the riddler has used before to use as a baseline, but most of his crimes are involve riddles that invite a solution.

 

 

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Batman (Earth-31): 5
The Riddler: 5