9:11 - Ozymandias (Watchmen) vs. John Constantine

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 9, ROUND 11

Ozymandias (Watchmen)

Slot: The Team's Master Criminal
Season Wins: 3
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Ozymandias (Watchmen) at Wikipedia
Official Site: DC Comics

John Constantine

Slot: The Team's Master Detective
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about John Constantine at Wikipedia
Official Site: DC Comics

Battle Terrain
Detective Challenge: The Death Trap Challenge

[Magnamax]

The main thing working in Constantine’s favor is that he is extremely good on his feet and working out of situations on the fly. This usually involves some higher-powered lord of hell. Most of his abilities are geared around him being sleight-of-hand fast. I think he is pretty well suited against a death trap.

[Peypeypeypey]

Ozy successfully built a trap that trapped the nigh-omnipotent, nigh-omniscient Dr. Manhattan and successfully atomized him with an intrinsic field. The only reason Manhattan survived was because he's just so massively powerful that he could reconstitute himself. Ozy is definitely smarter and was able to work around Dr. Manhattan, who is far smarter than either combatant here. Ozy should have this

[Magnamax]

3 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Ozy successfully built a trap that trapped the nigh-omnipotent, nigh-omniscient Dr. Manhattan and successfully atomized him with an intrinsic field. The only reason Manhattan survived was because he's just so massively powerful that he could reconstitute himself. Ozy is definitely smarter and was able to work around Dr. Manhattan, who is far smarter than either combatant here. Ozy should have this

That trap, and the subsequent outsmarting of him, was built around decades of studying and resources. He won’t have that kind of time and Constantine shouldn’t be lured in the same manner as Dr Manhattan. Even in that instance, the trap didn’t actually eliminate Manhattan. Given this should be under tighter time constraints and Ozy won’t have the same weaknesses to exploit, I don’t think he’s going to be able to trap Constantine. Again, Constantine’s whole schtick is outmaneuvering opponents who are more powerful.

He’s outsmarted Darkseod, Dr Fate, etc and can teleport. I think he’s handled opponents far outside of Ozy, escaping shouldn’t be beyond him.

[Peypeypeypey]

1 minute ago, Magnamax said:

That trap, and the subsequent outsmarting of him, was built around decades of studying and resources. He won’t have that kind of time and Constantine shouldn’t be lured in the same manner as Dr Manhattan. Even in that instance, the trap didn’t actually eliminate Manhattan. Given this should be under tighter time constraints and Ozy won’t have the same weaknesses to exploit, I don’t think he’s going to be able to trap Constantine. Again, Constantine’s whole schtick is outmaneuvering opponents who are more powerful.

He’s outsmarted Darkseod, Dr Fate, etc and can teleport. I think he’s handled opponents far outside of Ozy, escaping shouldn’t be beyond him.

I'll address the whole point later, but a point of order is that I'm almost positive the detectives weren't supposed to have superpowers, so I'm assuming he won't have access to his teleportation here

[Macklemore]

2 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I'll address the whole point later, but a point of order is that I'm almost positive the detectives weren't supposed to have superpowers, so I'm assuming he won't have access to his teleportation here

He's not allowed powers that help with his detective skills, if I recall correctly, which I don't see how teleportation is. If that's the case, wouldn't that make your character (Detective Chimp) unable to use his bloodhound senses?

[Peypeypeypey]

4 hours ago, Macklemore said:

He's not allowed powers that help with his detective skills, if I recall correctly, which I don't see how teleportation is. If that's the case, wouldn't that make your character (Detective Chimp) unable to use his bloodhound senses?

That's different in my eyes. A character like Batman, for example, is superhumanly perceptive, but it's not really a "power" he has. He can see and react to things like bullets that normal humans can't, and in a crime scene he notices details too small and obscure for basically any real human to notice as quickly and casually as Batman does without the aid of any equipment. However, I don't think that qualifies as Batman having a "power," so to speak. Detective Chimp has enhances senses because of his species, but again, that's not really a "power" so much as it's just the way he is biologically. I know, a character like a Kryptonian is technically that way "biologically" too, but I think it's a fine line. If you choose to interpret it as a "power" he has, fair enough, but to me it's no more a power than just having heightened senses

[Pizzaguy2995]

Might actually vote for Ozy. Outsmarting and killing a nigh-Omnipotent and Omniscience being is a pretty damn impressive feat. Sure Constantine has outfoxed plenty top tier guys, but none of them quite like Dr. M.

[Magnamax]

53 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Might actually vote for Ozy. Outsmarting and killing a nigh-Omnipotent and Omniscience being is a pretty damn impressive feat. Sure Constantine has outfoxed plenty top tier guys, but none of them quite like Dr. M.

He's outmaneuvered Darkseid, who is definitely above Dr. M. He's also done it more consistently with high-tier characters. 

 

EDIT: He also didn't kill Manhattan

Edited June 4, 2021 by Magnamax

[Peypeypeypey]

45 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

He's outmaneuvered Darkseid, who is definitely above Dr. M. He's also done it more consistently with high-tier characters. 

 

EDIT: He also didn't kill Manhattan

Darkseid isn't above current Dr. Manhattan, I wouldn't think. Also, Darkseid is nowhere near as smart as Manhattan is, given his non-linear view of time and understanding of everything down to the molecular level

[Magnamax]

1 minute ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Darkseid isn't above current Dr. Manhattan, I wouldn't think. Also, Darkseid is nowhere near as smart as Manhattan is, given his non-linear view of time and understanding of everything down to the molecular level

That might be true post-Doomsday Clock. But the Watchmen-specific Dr. Manahattan that Ozymandias interacted with was not implied to be that powerful. I also have pointed out that Ozymandias leveraged a very specific weakness with years of planning to essentially keep Dr. Manhattan in the dark long enough to blow up New York City. He didn't outsmart Dr. Manhattan so much as understand his apathy towards humanity and kept a veil up by manipulating tachyons. Constantine has out manuevered really powerful beings like Swamp Thing, Dr. Fate, and Darkseid. His escape skills are strong enough that he can get out of a strait jacket and sleight-of-hand a guy to eat glass: https://imgur.com/DORVm9I, https://imgur.com/a/65MU2uZ, and I also contend that him being able to cast a teleportation spell should be something of fair game, given that's based of his intuition and intelligence, but still think he's good enough to escape regardless.

[Peypeypeypey]

2 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

That might be true post-Doomsday Clock. But the Watchmen-specific Dr. Manahattan that Ozymandias interacted with was not implied to be that powerful.

I'm pretty sure that they're the same character from the same continuity from Dr. Manhattan's view. The Doomsday Clock shenanigans are just Manhattan flexing his powers in ways he hadn't done before, from my understanding.

3 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

I also have pointed out that Ozymandias leveraged a very specific weakness with years of planning to essentially keep Dr. Manhattan in the dark long enough to blow up New York City. He didn't outsmart Dr. Manhattan so much as understand his apathy towards humanity and kept a veil up by manipulating tachyons. 

I would argue that he did outsmart Dr. Manhattan, as much as a being as smart as Dr. Manhattan can be outsmarted. Not only does he do everything you mentioned, but he has a deep enough understanding of Dr. Manhattan that he knows that Manhattan will ultimately favor his plan when it all plays out, which he does. It's not just a matter of outsmarting him, but also getting Manhattan to agree that this was the best solution, showing he's both incredibly intelligent and great at understanding his opponent

5 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

I also contend that him being able to cast a teleportation spell should be something of fair game, given that's based of his intuition and intelligence, but still think he's good enough to escape regardless.

I super disagree with this point because the detective skill being tested here is their ability to escape. Therefore, teleportation is fundamentally the same as if he could, for example, cast a spell that took him to the art thief's front door in the art thief challenge

[Magnamax]

37 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I'm pretty sure that they're the same character from the same continuity from Dr. Manhattan's view. The Doomsday Clock shenanigans are just Manhattan flexing his powers in ways he hadn't done before, from my understanding.

I would argue that he did outsmart Dr. Manhattan, as much as a being as smart as Dr. Manhattan can be outsmarted. Not only does he do everything you mentioned, but he has a deep enough understanding of Dr. Manhattan that he knows that Manhattan will ultimately favor his plan when it all plays out, which he does. It's not just a matter of outsmarting him, but also getting Manhattan to agree that this was the best solution, showing he's both incredibly intelligent and great at understanding his opponent

I super disagree with this point because the detective skill being tested here is their ability to escape. Therefore, teleportation is fundamentally the same as if he could, for example, cast a spell that took him to the art thief's front door in the art thief challenge

I haven’t read Doomsday Clock, but judging on feats, the Dr Manhattan of that story has awakened to much greater power than the Watchmen version. He’s certainly not reality-warping in Watchmen. 
 

I disagree on that technically being outsmarting Manhattan, however, beyond that: Ozy needed decades of intimate knowledge and close study to pull that off. And that was still just concealing something that Manhattan may not have been super motivated to stop.

 

Those are different. He would presumably have to still figure who the art thief is. Here, he would need to think fast enough to cast said spell in order to escape. I think he can, given his general aptitude at getting away from those way higher powered than Ozymandias.

I think Constantine just has a higher ceiling here. He’s worked against traps too often to be easily fooled.

[Macklemore]

10 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I'm pretty sure that they're the same character from the same continuity from Dr. Manhattan's view. The Doomsday Clock shenanigans are just Manhattan flexing his powers in ways he hadn't done before, from my understanding.

He 100% is not. Appearing in the main DC universe did something to Manhattan which allowed him to use his powers to an extent that he couldn't before by virtue of being in an universe not bound by limits. It's weird, but there's definitely a canon explanation for his power spike.

[Peypeypeypey]

40 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

He 100% is not. Appearing in the main DC universe did something to Manhattan which allowed him to use his powers to an extent that he couldn't before by virtue of being in an universe not bound by limits. It's weird, but there's definitely a canon explanation for his power spike.

Oh well I might just be wrong then lol. But I think my larger point stands: Dr. Manhattan in the main Watchmen universe might not be as strong, but his omnipresence and nigh-omnipotence makes him harder to fool than Darkseid

 

[Macklemore]

58 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Oh well I might just be wrong then lol. But I think my larger point stands: Dr. Manhattan in the main Watchmen universe might not be as strong, but his omnipresence and nigh-omnipotence makes him harder to fool than Darkseid

 

How so? Darkseid, in his true form, is also unbound by time by virtue of being higher dimensional than time itself.

[Peypeypeypey]

1 minute ago, Macklemore said:

How so? Darkseid, in his true form, is also unbound by time by virtue of being higher dimensional than time itself.

In the same way that his true form is massively more powerful than virtually any of the heroes but still loses to regular heroes all the time because he operates through material avatars. To flip the script here, can you show me a time when Constantine has outsmarted Darkseid despite Darkseid using his higher dimensional knowledge to actually try to defeat or kill Constantine?

[Magnamax]

14 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

In the same way that his true form is massively more powerful than virtually any of the heroes but still loses to regular heroes all the time because he operates through material avatars. To flip the script here, can you show me a time when Constantine has outsmarted Darkseid despite Darkseid using his higher dimensional knowledge to actually try to defeat or kill Constantine?

Constantine created an illusion strong enough that it convinced Darkseid that himself and an entire universe were dead. Darkseid bought it and left:

https://m.imgur.com/1On0vyz

https://m.imgur.com/W4MpJvl

https://m.imgur.com/zYgsgJn

https://m.imgur.com/lk2UY8Y
 

 

[Peypeypeypey]

6 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

Constantine created an illusion strong enough that it convinced Darkseid that himself and an entire universe were dead. Darkseid bought it and left:

https://m.imgur.com/1On0vyz

https://m.imgur.com/W4MpJvl

https://m.imgur.com/zYgsgJn

https://m.imgur.com/lk2UY8Y

Sure, but again, I chalk this up to the inconsistent way Darkseid is written. He goes from being a threat slowly threatening to destroy the universe with his army from Apokalypse to being so powerful merely him existing in a universe destroys it when he's in his "True form." There's no evidence that this is his "True Form," nor can I actually remember a time he has ever used his "True Form" to get knowledge that his Avatar would otherwise have been unable to gather, so I'm not even sure if this even tricked the True Form Darkseid. In any case, I feel like we're getting away from the core discussion here. With some time to prep and an understanding of DC magic, Ozymandias would be able to pull this off I feel. The scenario implies that the villain has prep time to set the trap up, presumably in a way specifically designed around the detective, and in that case, I think Ozy can figure something out that Constantine will either be unable to escape, or maybe even do something like putting him in a situation where he willingly chooses to not escape the death trap because Ozy has designed a scenario in which Constantine's death achieves a greater cause, like with Dr. Manhattan taking the blame at the end of Watchmen. Is that super likely? No, but it is a possibility

[Magnamax]

48 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Sure, but again, I chalk this up to the inconsistent way Darkseid is written. He goes from being a threat slowly threatening to destroy the universe with his army from Apokalypse to being so powerful merely him existing in a universe destroys it when he's in his "True form." There's no evidence that this is his "True Form," nor can I actually remember a time he has ever used his "True Form" to get knowledge that his Avatar would otherwise have been unable to gather, so I'm not even sure if this even tricked the True Form Darkseid. In any case, I feel like we're getting away from the core discussion here. With some time to prep and an understanding of DC magic, Ozymandias would be able to pull this off I feel. The scenario implies that the villain has prep time to set the trap up, presumably in a way specifically designed around the detective, and in that case, I think Ozy can figure something out that Constantine will either be unable to escape, or maybe even do something like putting him in a situation where he willingly chooses to not escape the death trap because Ozy has designed a scenario in which Constantine's death achieves a greater cause, like with Dr. Manhattan taking the blame at the end of Watchmen. Is that super likely? No, but it is a possibility

No argument on Darkseid's inconsistency, but it is explicitly stated in this scan that Darkseid's presence was going to wipe out that universe. Either way, Constantine being able to pull off a universe-wide smokescreen to fool one of the most powerful beings in the DC Universe is a really high ceiling of his ability to escape and think on his feet. I don't know how Ozymandias is going to pull off a death trap that forces John to sacrifice himself for a greater cause within a very compressed timeframe and Constantine has routinely worked around others that have more power than Ozy and can place him into far more compromised positions. In a lot of ways, I think this is just a really fortunate pull for my guy because this is essentially his entire schtick. Ozy can probably put together a pretty good death trap, but John is more adept at escaping danger, which is his curse. I think it is simply more likely that John can escape than Ozy can trap the detective.

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Ozymandias (Watchmen): 6
John Constantine: 5