12:1 - Moon Knight vs. Sub-Zero

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 1

Moon Knight

Slot: The Team's Scrappy Fighter
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Moon Knight at this Wiki
Official Site: Marvel Entertainment

Sub-Zero

Slot: The Team's Scrappy Fighter
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Sub-Zero at this Wiki
Official Site: Midway

Battle Terrain
Battle Terrain: Hall of Mirrors

[Mercenaryblade]

Now this would be a fun match!

[Peypeypeypey]

I don't know enough about Moon Knight to make an informed decision, but going by his RT, Moon Knight's got some great durability and strength feats. I've also always said that MK characters are overhyped because of their brutality, but are generally speaking not very strong. The "Big Bad" of their universe doesn't peak above Tier 8. Going by feats, Spiderman could probably take him if he had resistance to soul-sucking abilities (and honestly even without because Shao Kahn never canonically uses those abilities). Overall, I'm leaning Moon Knight

[Culwych1]

In my view this is playing into Sub Zero's strenghts. Moon Knight tends to want to get up close and personal, and in this case he is going up against one of the best fighters in the MK universe, and a grandmaster of a ninja clan. He is the better fighter, and as Shang Chi has said in the comics, Moon Knight is skilled but impetious. Then bring in the ice powers and Moon Knight is toast. 

[Twogunkid]

It also depends on which Sub Zero we are talking. There are two.

 

If MK can close the distance I think he can take it, but I think the mirror hall plays to Sub Zero's ninja strengths.

[Magnamax]

Moon Knight has durability feats against Dr Doom, Venom, etc. He’s got the agility to keep up with Spider-Man, Daredevil, and consistently dodge gunfire. He’s also beaten Deadpool before, someone trained in ninjitsu with comparable skill.

 

I think better strength, durability and speed should be enough to win the day for Marc. Especially in a more contained environment.

[Culwych1]

Sub Zero regularly holds his own against stronger opponents who can demolish buildings, throw lightning and fireballs, and teleport.

The big thing in his favor is his ability to keep a cool head (pun intended) during a fight, whereas Moon Knight tends to go bloodlusted. 

Both ice powers (which can be infuriating) and the scenario are going to send him over the edge pretty quickly.

But a key point here is brutality,  Moon Knights strength is how deadly he is willing to go to beat his opponents, even heroes, but that is child's play to the MK universe. Their lives are constant battle, training constantly in fights and wars. Sub Zero will have as much if not more experience in all those, and is willing to go just as brutal as Moon Knight. He freezes people and rips them apart as part of his regular story. 

If Moon Knight gets too close, he going to get frozen and then it's all over.

[Magnamax]

11 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

Sub Zero regularly holds his own against stronger opponents who can demolish buildings, throw lightning and fireballs, and teleport.

The big thing in his favor is his ability to keep a cool head (pun intended) during a fight, whereas Moon Knight tends to go bloodlusted. 

Both ice powers (which can be infuriating) and the scenario are going to send him over the edge pretty quickly.

But a key point here is brutality,  Moon Knights strength is how deadly he is willing to go to beat his opponents, even heroes, but that is child's play to the MK universe. Their lives are constant battle, training constantly in fights and wars. Sub Zero will have as much if not more experience in all those, and is willing to go just as brutal as Moon Knight. He freezes people and rips them apart as part of his regular story. 

If Moon Knight gets too close, he going to get frozen and then it's all over.

I don’t think he’s going to get frozen that easily, again his armor is able to tank shots from Marvel heavies that are more powerful than Sun-Zero. Sub-Zero almost never freezes his opponents indefinitely unless it’s a fatality animation.

 

I also think Moon Knight’s strength and speed are both operating on a higher level. He’s able to tangle with Spider-Man, Daredevil and Deadpool: all of whom are faster/stronger/more skilled than Sub Zero. Most MK fighters do not scale very well in something like the Marvel universe, and I think Moon Knight is essentially a mix of Batman and The Punisher. When the fight gets in close, he’s stronger, faster and more durable.

[Magnamax]

Worth pointing out that Moon Knight’s armor and weapons are all admantium-based. I don’t think Sub Zero has much that’s going to get through.

[Culwych1]

2 hours ago, Magnamax said:

I don’t think he’s going to get frozen that easily, again his armor is able to tank shots from Marvel heavies that are more powerful than Sun-Zero. Sub-Zero almost never freezes his opponents indefinitely unless it’s a fatality animation.

 

I also think Moon Knight’s strength and speed are both operating on a higher level. He’s able to tangle with Spider-Man, Daredevil and Deadpool: all of whom are faster/stronger/more skilled than Sub Zero. Most MK fighters do not scale very well in something like the Marvel universe, and I think Moon Knight is essentially a mix of Batman and The Punisher. When the fight gets in close, he’s stronger, faster and more durable.

I'd question those characters being faster/stronger/more skilled than a Grandmaster.

And Sub Zero does use his abilities in far more than fatalities - here is rips a guy in half, and there are plenty of instances where he uses his powers to kill or to destroy armour, stone or metal. I'll grant the adamantium may prove tricky (didn't realise that was his armour), but he has ripped cyborgs in two before and there will be plenty of flesh to get access to.

[Magnamax]

43 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

I'd question those characters being faster/stronger/more skilled than a Grandmaster.

And Sub Zero does use his abilities in far more than fatalities - here is rips a guy in half, and there are plenty of instances where he uses his powers to kill or to destroy armour, stone or metal. I'll grant the adamantium may prove tricky (didn't realise that was his armour), but he has ripped cyborgs in two before and there will be plenty of flesh to get access to.

I should be more specific, he’s rarely able to pull that off going against another skilled fighter. Again, tanking blasts from Doom or blows from Venom is far and away more than what Sub Zero can dish out.

 

I also think it’s unquestionable that Daredevil and Deathstroke are on another tier in terms of combat ability. And all three have better speed feats than Sub Zero. Moon Knight also has more feats of bullet dodging, slicing bullets in half and being able to dish out/tank damage. I think Moon Knight handles him once the fight gets close and gives Sub a hard time with admantoum projectiles until it does.

[Culwych1]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the other combatant skills.

In regards to projectiles, Sub Zero should have no problem dodging anything thrown at him (regularly contending with everything from acid, to lightning, lasers, bombs and more), and at the end of the day Moon Knight just has to get hit once to get frozen and taken down with the brutality of an assassin and expert ninja (as seen here: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/5/5e/Sub_zero_ice_ball_2.gif/revision/latest?cb=20190209131243)

[Magnamax]

18 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on the other combatant skills.

In regards to projectiles, Sub Zero should have no problem dodging anything thrown at him (regularly contending with everything from acid, to lightning, lasers, bombs and more), and at the end of the day Moon Knight just has to get hit once to get frozen and taken down with the brutality of an assassin and expert ninja (as seen here: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/5/5e/Sub_zero_ice_ball_2.gif/revision/latest?cb=20190209131243)

Objectively Daredevil, Moon Knight, and Deadpool have mastered more martial arts than anything I can find on Sub-Zero. They also all fight opponents who are masters of multiple martial arts.

I don’t think Sub Zero is a bullet timer, where Moon Knight has several bullet timing feats. Also, I disagree strongly that Moon Knight would get one-shot on an ice blast. Johnny Cage, Liu Kang, and Sonya are all normal humans and they aren’t getting one-shot easily. Moon Knight is stronger, better equipped, faster, and has fought opponents more skilled than Sub Zero. There are too many things in spector’s favor. He should win here.

 

[Culwych1]

52 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

Objectively Daredevil, Moon Knight, and Deadpool have mastered more martial arts than anything I can find on Sub-Zero. They also all fight opponents who are masters of multiple martial arts.

I don’t think Sub Zero is a bullet timer, where Moon Knight has several bullet timing feats. Also, I disagree strongly that Moon Knight would get one-shot on an ice blast. Johnny Cage, Liu Kang, and Sonya are all normal humans and they aren’t getting one-shot easily. Moon Knight is stronger, better equipped, faster, and has fought opponents more skilled than Sub Zero. There are too many things in spector’s favor. He should win here.

 

Johnny and Liu are not normal humans and have powers. Sonya I'm less sure about. 

He may not get one shotted by ice powers, but he isn't going to shrug them off either. There are just so many ways that Sub Zero could use his powers here, and I do believe being a trained ninja is going to work in his favour in this scenario. 

[Magnamax]

4 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

Johnny and Liu are not normal humans and have powers. Sonya I'm less sure about. 

He may not get one shotted by ice powers, but he isn't going to shrug them off either. There are just so many ways that Sub Zero could use his powers here, and I do believe being a trained ninja is going to work in his favour in this scenario. 

What ways will his powers get through adamantium in a way that Dr Doom cannot? Liu and Cage are normal humans in their defense. Cage occasionally exhibits some ability when attacking, but he’s still not taken down by Zero when using his ice attacks. He’s a trained ninja, but Moon Knight is trained in much more than ninjitsu.

I still don’t see how Moon Knight loses when he is better equipped, faster, stronger, and more skilled. He has every advantage in this fight.

[Fox]

As far as I can determine, the current iteration of Moon Knight has given up his Adamantium suit for Carbonadium.

Carbonadium being more flexible, but supposedly having similar durability to adamantium.  In theory.  I mean it's all fantastical comic book material, so why not.

If we assume Carbonadium has the same freeze point as Adamantium, then it is important to note that the Freeze point of Adamaintium is NOT PROVIDED By Marvel.  However, the freeze point of Vibranium is as -395.4 degrees Fahrenheit.  Only the Melting point of Adamantium is given by Marvel, which is 1500 degrees Fahrenheit.

OK, so all that nerd lore basically tells you that we can assume Moon Knight's kit is going to be highly cold resistant.

While there is a lot of creative things one can do with ice powers, in Sub-Zero's case they always seem to be used as part of his martial arts package.  I mean, he's still Tier 9 ... it's not like he's Ice Man (Bobby Drake) or something.

Anyways, against a fighter that was disadvantaged by cold I would generally give Sub-Zero the nod. But since Moon Knight is both cold resistant and brings his own advantages to the table with durability, weapons strength and fighting feats I feel he may have the upper hand here.

I'd give it to Moon Knight 7 times out of ten, and have to vote that way.

 

[Pizzaguy2995]

3 hours ago, Fox said:

If we assume Carbonadium has the same freeze point as Adamantium, then it is important to note that the Freeze point of Adamaintium is NOT PROVIDED By Marvel.  However, the freeze point of Vibranium is as -395.4 degrees Fahrenheit.  Only the Melting point of Adamantium is given by Marvel, which is 1500 degrees Fahrenheit.

OK, so all that nerd lore basically tells you that we can assume Moon Knight's kit is going to be highly cold resistant.

 

I don’t mean to start a fight, but I’m a bit of comics/video game lore nerd myself and I’ve read somewhere online that in order for Sub-Zero to freeze a person solid within a few seconds he’d have to lower the surrounding temperature to -6,000,000 degrees Fahrenheit. So I don’t think either Adamantium or Carbonadium is gonna protect Moon Knight from being frozen solid.

[Fox]

31 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

I don’t mean to start a fight, but I’m a bit of comics/video game lore nerd myself and I’ve read somewhere online that in order for Sub-Zero to freeze a person solid within a few seconds he’d have to lower the surrounding temperature to -6,000,000 degrees Fahrenheit. So I don’t think either Adamantium or Carbonadium is gonna protect Moon Knight from being frozen solid.

There's no fight - I already cast my vote anyways. But, you need to check that.

I mean the science of Cryonics which theorizes you can freeze a person and resurrect them later put the temp at -320 F.

The temperature in space, which will of course freeze a person solid right quick, is -455 degrees F (on average, assuming you aren't orbiting a Sun or something).

So, I don't know where this -6,000,000 degrees F number is coming from.  You need to Google that out and bring the link and the science back for us to see, because that's a crazy number.

[Pizzaguy2995]

13 minutes ago, Fox said:

There's no fight - I already cast my vote anyways. But, you need to check that.

I mean the science of Cryonics which theorizes you can freeze a person and resurrect them later put the temp at -320 F.

The temperature in space, which will of course freeze a person solid right quick, is -455 degrees F.

So, I don't know where this -6,000,000 degrees F number is coming from.  You need to Google that out and bring the link and the science back for us to see, because that's a crazy number.

Sorry but I googled that website a long time ago and I haven’t been able to find again. 

But you are right when you said -6,000,000 degrees F is a crazy number because that was the website’s main point. It should be absolutely impossible for Sub-Zero to freeze an adult human solid like that, like even at absolute zero (-459.67 F) it would take at least 10 minutes for someone to freeze to the point they’d shatter like literally ice. While yes being in space would freeze someone to death instantly, not even that could turn someone to absolute ice that quickly.

Anyways my main point still stands, in order for Subby to pull off his freezing someone in seconds feat, he’d have to pull off a temperature well below -459.67 F which is much colder then either Adamantium or Carbonadium could protect against.

[Peypeypeypey]

13 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Sorry but I googled that website a long time ago and I haven’t been able to find again. 

But you are right when you said -6,000,000 degrees F is a crazy number because that was the website’s main point. It should be absolutely impossible for Sub-Zero to freeze an adult human solid like that, like even at absolute zero (-459.67 F) it would take at least 10 minutes for someone to freeze to the point they’d shatter like literally ice. While yes being in space would freeze someone to death instantly, not even that could turn someone to absolute ice that quickly.

Anyways my main point still stands, in order for Subby to pull off his freezing someone in seconds feat, he’d have to pull off a temperature well below -459.67 F which is much colder then either Adamantium or Carbonadium could protect against.

That's only in order to freeze thing naturally, right? This is a highly scientific explanation for a magical ability. I always just assumed it was some kinda magic mumbo jumbo that made the freezing so fast.

In either case, I think the point is somewhat of a tangent. The point, as I see it, is that Sub-Zero canonically loses a lot of fights to people around Moon Knight's level, and he isn't able/willing to just flash freeze them all, so his ice powers are obviously somewhat limited. Moon Knight has better equipment, training, and a better fighting record than the likes of Sonya, who beat the Bi-Han Sub-Zero cleanly in MK 9. One loss obviously doesn't necessarily mean Sub-Zero loses, I just think it really throws into question how oppressively strong Sub-Zero's powers are, as I think they're being way oversold here

[Culwych1]

 

Although will leave this with the fact that Sub Zero doesn't always kill immediately with his powers because he's not a bad guy (new SZ), but if he needs to he definitely can do so: https://streamable.com/n8h0x

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Moon Knight: 5
Sub-Zero: 10