12:2 - Necrons vs. The Dominion

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 2

Necrons

Slot: The Team's Planetary Invasion Force
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Necrons at this Wiki
Official Site: Games Workshop PLC

The Dominion

Slot: The Team's Planetary Invasion Force
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about The Dominion at this Wiki
Official Site: Paramount

Battle Terrain
Alien Invasion: Battleground planet Earth

[RiotGear]

The Founders could infiltrate the leadership of both Earth and the Necrons ( via shape shifting ) and win this with out firing a shot.

[Twogunkid]

Also Jem'hadar are nasty foot soldiers with the ability to personally cloak they are just about the deadliest ground troops in the Trek universe.

[RiotGear]

4 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Also Jem'hadar are nasty foot soldiers with the ability to personally cloak they are just about the deadliest ground troops in the Trek universe.

Oh yeah if they have to fight it out. The Dominion is more then capable.

Not only are the Jem'Hadar bio engineered super soldiers and the Vorta have telepathic/telekinetic powers, but the Dominions access to transporters.

Not only means they can move troops anywhere they want near instantaneously, but they can also remove enemy forces from the field at will.

They are also not above deploying bio engineered diseases to wipe out a population.

[Mercenaryblade]

You guys seriously thing the founders can impersonate a Nekron? They'd see through that. 

Nekrons are living metal, they don't know pain, they don't know fear. They're basically terminators. 

 

[RiotGear]

7 minutes ago, Mercenaryblade said:

You guys seriously thing the founders can impersonate a Nekron? They'd see through that. 

Nekrons are living metal, they don't know pain, they don't know fear. They're basically terminators. 

 

Why wouldn't they be able to impersonate a Necrons. They can turn into fog and computer consoles. A pseudo-terminator would not be an issue.

How would Necrons see through it? What ability or technology do they have access to that would allow them to detect Changelings, that could trick the sensor technology and telepaths the Federation have access to?

[Mercenaryblade]

7 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Why wouldn't they be able to impersonate a Necrons. They can turn into fog and computer consoles. A pseudo-terminator would not be an issue.

How would Necrons see through it? What ability or technology do they have access to that would allow them to detect Changelings, that could trick the sensor technology and telepaths the Federation have access to?

Because the founder wouldn't be able to think like a Nekron, they have a certain mindset and way of communicating, when the changeling is acting a bit off I don't think the ruse would last forever. They managed to infiltrate most the Alpha qudrant powers because they're easy to understand and infiltrate. Nekrons are far more alien than most of star trek. 

[RiotGear]

1 minute ago, Mercenaryblade said:

Because the founder wouldn't be able to think like a Nekron, they have a certain mindset and way of communicating, when the changeling is acting a bit off I don't think the ruse would last forever. They managed to infiltrate most the Alpha qudrant powers because they're easy to understand and infiltrate. Nekrons are far more alien than most of star trek. 

Even if the Founder is off in there presentation of being a Necrons. What is the response going to be? Shape shifters are not common in 40k and those that do exist. Do not seem to have the same level of mimicry the Founders have. 

So the first thought other Necrons have is not going to be hey it's a Changeling. 

That is again assuming the Changeling goofs it.

Because while you say the races of the Alpha Quadrant aren't as alien in the way they think/act. That is from a human perspective. To the Founders. Solids especially those of the Alpha Quadrant are very foreign in thought, culture, and action.

Also once again the Founders tricked medical sensors and telepaths so there ability to get into the mind/head space of those they are copying is next level.

[Pizzaguy2995]

3 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Even if the Founder is off in there presentation of being a Necrons. What is the response going to be? Shape shifters are not common in 40k and those that do exist. Do not seem to have the same level of mimicry the Founders have. 

So the first thought other Necrons have is not going to be hey it's a Changeling. 

That is again assuming the Changeling goofs it.

That’s not true at all, in 40k there’s a species of xenos called the Lacrymole that can shapeshift and change their appearance at will just like the changelings and the Necrons have never had any trouble detecting and eliminating them when encountered. Heck the Imperium of Man almost completely genocided the Lacrymole when they first encountered them and their sensory tech is EONS behind the Necrons. Also all Necrons possess auto-repair systems that can instantly repair any damage done to their outer exo-skeleton, so if at any point they suspect one of their own is an imposter they would pull out their weapon and blast a hole through the accused and if it doesn’t auto repair itself like it usually does then they’ll know it’s an imposter.

6 hours ago, RiotGear said:

The Founders could infiltrate the leadership of both Earth and the Necrons ( via shape shifting ) and win this with out firing a shot.

And how long would that take the Foundation? Weeks? Months? Maybe a year? The Necrons have conquered entire solar systems within a matter of Earth days so I wouldn’t count on them just waiting around while the Foundation plans out how their gonna replace leaders without anyone noticing.

[RiotGear]

23 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

That’s not true at all, in 40k there’s a species of xenos called the Lacrymole that can shapeshift and change their appearance at will just like the changelings and the Necrons have never had any trouble detecting and eliminating them when encountered. Heck the Imperium of Man almost completely genocided the Lacrymole when they first encountered them and their sensory tech is EONS behind the Necrons. Also all Necrons possess auto-repair systems that can instantly repair any damage done to their outer exo-skeleton, so if at any point they suspect one of their own is an imposter they would pull out their weapon and blast a hole through the accused and if it doesn’t auto repair itself like it usually does then they’ll know it’s an imposter.

And how long would that take the Foundation? Weeks? Months? Maybe a year? The Necrons have conquered entire solar systems within a matter of Earth days so I wouldn’t count on them just waiting around while the Foundation plans out how their gonna replace leaders without anyone noticing.

How is what I said not true?

I didn't say shape shifter don't exist in 40k. I said there not common. Which as far as I tell is true.

The Lacrymole exist, but how often do they show up?

On top of that, do we have any incidences of them interacting with the Necrons?

Also do we have any evidence that the Lacrymoles can fool medical or sensor tech. Cause your kinda saying they can't.

If we assume rough parity between 40k and Star Trek in terms sensor tech. Wich seems really generous to 40k. It means that Changelings are better mimics then Lacrymoles.

Have Lacrymoles ever tricked telepathic safe guards? Can they turn into fog and fire?

Point is even if Necrons are familiar with Lacrymoles, said shape shifters are not on the same level as the Founders.

Depending on what a Changeling is shot with, assuming this is the Necrons response. They may well be able to simulate the Necrons regen. Founders are fairly resistant to damage themselves.

Few of more things. Even if they can't infiltrate the Necrons leadership easy. Doing so to earth should be super easy barley an inconvenience. Beam the leadership out while they are alone and replace them with Changelings who preceded to use there positions. To turn earth over to Dominion rule.

At which point they have invaded and taken over the planet.

Think about it with super aggressive alien kill bots like the Necron in orbit. The leadership of earth agreeing to join the Dominion, who are offering salvation. Would seem reasonable.

Now you might say they still have to fight the Necron and if that's the case they can do that. Again things like transporter tech is going to be a huge advantage.

Let's go back to infiltration though. Even if for whatever hackneyed reasons. The Founders cant pose as Necrons themselves. They can still get in there ships/facilities and commit mass sabotage, by posing as smoke, fire, fog, small animals, pieces of equipment etc.

On top of all that if the Dominion has to slug it out on the ground with the Necrons. The Jem'Hadar are still bio engineered organic killing machines. That can turn invisible and carry weapons that can vaporiser people.

In the end the Dominion just has way more win conditions then the Necrons. 

The Necrons have one option, shoot there way out. 

The Dominions got that option, but also politic avenues and subterfuge.

[Pizzaguy2995]

4 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

How is what I said not true?

I didn't say shape shifter don't exist in 40k. I said there not common. Which as far as I tell is true.

The Lacrymole exist, but how often do they show up?

On top of that, do we have any incidences of them interacting with the Necrons?

The Lacrymole are a minor faction in the Warhammer 40k game that can be encountered by ANY of the players factions including those playing as the Necrons. So yes they do regularly interacted with the Lacrymole, that was the part that was untrue.

11 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Also do we have any evidence that the Lacrymoles can fool medical or sensor tech. Cause your kinda saying they can't.

I just told you that both the Necrons and the Imperium of Man have encountered the Lacrymole and their technology was able to to figure them out very well, to the point the Imperium almost completely purged them from the universe! And again the Necrons technology is so much more advanced then the Imperium, there are actual Inquisition leaders who genuinely believe that the Necrons are magical. 

52 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Have Lacrymoles ever tricked telepathic safe guards? Can they turn into fog and fire?

Can the Changelings stay in their disguises for days on end? Because I read on Deep Space 9’s wiki that Changelings need to revert back to their original forms every 16 to 18 hours or else they’ll start to deteriorate. Both races have their limitations, so it’s ridiculous to say that the Changelings are on a different level when the Lacrymoles can do things the Changelings can’t.

59 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Depending on what a Changeling is shot with, assuming this is the Necrons response. They may well be able to simulate the Necrons regen. Founders are fairly resistant to damage themselves.

Well in the video below when Changeling Martok was shot through the chest you could briefly see that inside the hole his innards were a silvery glob, clearly outing him as a changeling. So I’d say my method of blowing a hole in a suspects chest would still work very well in figuring out whose who.

 

1 hour ago, RiotGear said:

Few of more things. Even if they can't infiltrate the Necrons leadership easy. Doing so to earth should be super easy barley an inconvenience. Beam the leadership out while they are alone and replace them with Changelings who preceded to use there positions. To turn earth over to Dominion rule.

At which point they have invaded and taken over the planet.

Think about it with super aggressive alien kill bots like the Necron in orbit. The leadership of earth agreeing to join the Dominion, who are offering salvation. Would seem reasonable.

Well again how long will it take for them to abduct and replace the leader of the free world? Cause the Necrons aren’t gonna wait around for them to do that, heck if this match takes place on modern day Earth then the Necrons could literally conquer and wipe humanity out within hours. Can the changelings work that fast? 
 

And what help could modern day humans offer the Dominion again? The Imperium of Man is FAR more advanced and numerous then Earth today and even they can’t beat the Necrons in a fair fight. Their a literal non factor here.

1 hour ago, RiotGear said:

Now you might say they still have to fight the Necron and if that's the case they can do that. Again things like transporter tech is going to be a huge advantage.

Let's go back to infiltration though. Even if for whatever hackneyed reasons. The Founders cant pose as Necrons themselves. They can still get in there ships/facilities and commit mass sabotage, by posing as smoke, fire, fog, small animals, pieces of equipment etc.

On top of all that if the Dominion has to slug it out on the ground with the Necrons. The Jem'Hadar are still bio engineered organic killing machines. That can turn invisible and carry weapons that can vaporiser people.

In the end the Dominion just has way more win conditions then the Necrons. 

The Necrons have one option, shoot there way out. 

The Dominions got that option, but also politic avenues and subterfuge.

Yeah the problem is I’ve done my homework on the Dominion and didn’t they lose their war against the Federation despite having several years of preparation and installing double agents in the Federation to sabotage it from the inside. All that and they were still beaten and surrendered after two years of war.

The Necrons as of current 40k canon are not only currently fighting both the Imperium (who have colonized half the Milky Way and wiped out countless other races) and the Tyranids (who are heavily implied to have devoured dozens of other galaxies before coming to the Milky Way) at the same but they are winning! 
 

Sorry but the Necrons fight far tougher foes then the Dominion and they have much better showings for it.

[RiotGear]

24 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

The Lacrymole are a minor faction in the Warhammer 40k game that can be encountered by ANY of the players factions including those playing as the Necrons. So yes they do regularly interacted with the Lacrymole, that was the part that was untrue.

I just told you that both the Necrons and the Imperium of Man have encountered the Lacrymole and their technology was able to to figure them out very well, to the point the Imperium almost completely purged them from the universe! And again the Necrons technology is so much more advanced then the Imperium, there are actual Inquisition leaders who genuinely believe that the Necrons are magical. 

Can the Changelings stay in their disguises for days on end? Because I read on Deep Space 9’s wiki that Changelings need to revert back to their original forms every 16 to 18 hours or else they’ll start to deteriorate. Both races have their limitations, so it’s ridiculous to say that the Changelings are on a different level when the Lacrymoles can do things the Changelings can’t.

Well in the video below when Changeling Martok was shot through the chest you could briefly see that inside the hole his innards were a silvery glob, clearly outing him as a changeling. So I’d say my method of blowing a hole in a suspects chest would still work very well in figuring out whose who.

 

Well again how long will it take for them to abduct and replace the leader of the free world? Cause the Necrons aren’t gonna wait around for them to do that, heck if this match takes place on modern day Earth then the Necrons could literally conquer and wipe humanity out within hours. Can the changelings work that fast? 
 

And what help could modern day humans offer the Dominion again? The Imperium of Man is FAR more advanced and numerous then Earth today and even they can’t beat the Necrons in a fair fight. Their a literal non factor here.

Yeah the problem is I’ve done my homework on the Dominion and didn’t they lose their war against the Federation despite having several years of preparation and installing double agents in the Federation to sabotage it from the inside. All that and they were still beaten and surrendered after two years of war.

The Necrons as of current 40k canon are not only currently fighting both the Imperium (who have colonized half the Milky Way and wiped out countless other races) and the Tyranids (who are heavily implied to have devoured dozens of other galaxies before coming to the Milky Way) at the same but they are winning! 
 

Sorry but the Necrons fight far tougher foes then the Dominion and they have much better showings for it.

So there are examples in the fluff, lore, or canon where Lacrymoles interact with the Necrons?

If so what was the outcome?

I said they are not common and I know of no material that mentions them meeting. So far it looks like both those things are true.

So Lacrymoles can't fool sensor tech or telepaths? If that's the case, then yes there ability to mimic is not on the level of the Founders and trying to compare the two, in terms of being found out is kinda silly.

As for how long Changelings can hold there form, it depends on the Founder in question, but some have done it for days at a time. It's also worth mentioning. That they have successfully posed as people who have families and spouses for extended periods of time. So whatever limitations they might have in holding solid shape, they have learned to work around.

Like I said it would depend on the weapon used. Don't forgot Star Trek weapons can straight up vaporiser people.

How long would it take to replace world leaders. Well a fleet of ships with transporters. Roughly 200 countries. Minutes if need be.

I didn't say modern day earth would help the Dominion per se. Rather that there are two ways I've seen people interpret this scenario. One is a race to see who conquers earth first, the other is that earth is simply the battle ground. If it's the former. Then once Founder replacements are in place the Dominion has won the day.

Yes they lost the war with the Alpha Quadrant. Not just the Federation, but the 3 major powers of the Quadrant and the lose still only happened because of the intervention of God like beings and because the Federation had a Changeling of there own.

All the powers in 40k are warring on multiple fronts against multiple opponents. So no one can fully commit to any individual war.

On the other hand the Dominion faced down three major powers nearly on its own.

The Dominion also fought that war without access to many of there forces. We only really saw the small amount that could be moved into the Alpha Quadrant before the mining of the wormhole or built with limited local resources.

Let's also not forgot that before that war. They had already conquered a quarter of the galaxy.

 

[Mercenaryblade]

I just don't see infiltration as viable. It's a simultaneous invasion, Earth forces are a major non factor they'd be obliterated about as fast as the Earth in Half Life to the combine. So even if the changelings rallied Earth to submit to Dominion rule it would hardly matter. 

Still seems dubious that they would be able to infiltrate Necrons. Necrons are the most advanced faction in 40K, so they just might have better tech than Trek. Also a Necron acting strangely giving bad orders is bound to make them suspicious, or if not suspicious decide that this officer is unable to lead and destroy them. 

(This is tough for me as I actually like Trek better than 40K)

 

 

[Pizzaguy2995]

10 hours ago, RiotGear said:

So there are examples in the fluff, lore, or canon where Lacrymoles interact with the Necrons?

If so what was the outcome?

I said they are not common and I know of no material that mentions them meeting. So far it looks like both those things are true.

I’ve already explained this to you, when you play as the Necrons in the board games you can encounter the Lacrymoles same as any other minor race and just like the other minor races all it takes is a pretty medium roll to defeat them which I’m pretty sure would involve figuring out how to spot them when they shapeshift. 

Are you saying that the Warhammer 40k board games not canon to the series now? You do realize that all the other novels, games, and wiki lore are based on what was established in the board games right? To cast doubt on the board games authenticity is to cast doubt on every other source of the Warhammer 40k franchise.

Now look when you say that you don’t know any material where they meet I assume you are referring to what you’ve read in the wiki pages right? Well those wiki pages tend to be written with the novels as their main sources and since said novels are told from the Imperium point of view yes it is hard to discern what species the Necrons have encountered outside of humanity, but again the novels and by extension the wiki’s lore does not supersede the board games so that point is moot anyways.

10 hours ago, RiotGear said:

So Lacrymoles can't fool sensor tech or telepaths? If that's the case, then yes there ability to mimic is not on the level of the Founders and trying to compare the two, in terms of being found out is kinda silly.

As for how long Changelings can hold there form, it depends on the Founder in question, but some have done it for days at a time. It's also worth mentioning. That they have successfully posed as people who have families and spouses for extended periods of time. So whatever limitations they might have in holding solid shape, they have learned to work around.

According to the Memory Alpha wiki page it specifically says that EVERY changeling has to change back to their natural liquid state every 16 to 18 hours or else they’ll start to deteriorate and “flake” away. Here’s the wiki’s link if you need to verify it:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Changeling
 

You can phrase it how you want but the fact is that the Chanelings have a limitation to their abilities that the Lacrymoles don’t, so no the changelings are not on another level to the Lacrymoles and it is very fair to compare the two and say that since the Necrons can handle the Lacrymoles then they should be more then able to handle the changelings.

I should also mention that the changelings limitation is a very serious weakness here since unlike with the Federation where the Changelings can hide in their personal rooms when they need to shift back, the average Necron warrior or even the Overlords won’t be provided the same privacy the Federation gives so they’ll have no where to hide when they inevitably need to change back.

10 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Like I said it would depend on the weapon used. Don't forgot Star Trek weapons can straight up vaporiser people.

So can the Necrons. Their weapons are lasers too.

10 hours ago, RiotGear said:

How long would it take to replace world leaders. Well a fleet of ships with transporters. Roughly 200 countries. Minutes if need be.

I didn't say modern day earth would help the Dominion per se. Rather that there are two ways I've seen people interpret this scenario. One is a race to see who conquers earth first, the other is that earth is simply the battle ground. If it's the former. Then once Founder replacements are in place the Dominion has won the day.

Minutes? I doubt that highly RiotGear.

Firstly, in the original series it took the Dominion years to infiltrate and replace the Federation’s leaders and at least three of there agents were found out during that process. Now granted modern Earth is smaller and less advanced then the Federation, but are you honestly telling me that what they previously needed 2-3 years to accomplish they can now do in minutes flawlessly? Nah bruh, if their careful and patient they could maybe do it in a few weeks or a month but not in literal minutes.

Secondly, you are aware that almost every major world leader is surrounded 24/7 by photographers, news bloggers, bodyguards, and are constantly monitored and watched by each nations own secret service agency at almost every waking hour, you know this right? Yet your actually making the argument that the changelings can abduct and replace every one of these leaders without ANY of the following groups of people noticing? I’m not saying they could stop the Dominion from beaming them out, but if the goal is to do so while they are alone I would think it would take much MUCH longer then just a few minutes, cause most world leaders on average will spend half their day meeting and greeting each other so the Dominion will at least need to wait for almost a full day before they can get them alone.  

Thirdly, once the Necrons invade the Earth the Dominions infiltration plan goes out the window. Once an alien invasion starts almost every secret service agency goes on lockdown mode and will have their leader put in a secure bunker surrounded by agents at all times so no way will the Dominion get them alone at that point. Not until the Necrons wipe out Earth’s defense and conquer the planet in which case the Necrons will have won the scenario.

10 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Yes they lost the war with the Alpha Quadrant. Not just the Federation, but the 3 major powers of the Quadrant and the lose still only happened because of the intervention of God like beings and because the Federation had a Changeling of there own.

All the powers in 40k are warring on multiple fronts against multiple opponents. So no one can fully commit to any individual war.

On the other hand the Dominion faced down three major powers nearly on its own.

The Dominion also fought that war without access to many of there forces. We only really saw the small amount that could be moved into the Alpha Quadrant before the mining of the wormhole or built with limited local resources.

Let's also not forgot that before that war. They had already conquered a quarter of the galaxy.

Look it’s like you said, in this scenario the Necrons will need to conquer the Earth before the Dominion, which as I’ve already explained they’ll only need a few hours to do and no way will the Dominion get to those leaders alone during the ensuring battle. But if we view this as who will win an all out battle on Earth between our two forces then the Necrons will win that too.

You mentioned the “intervention of God like beings” helping to beat the Dominion? The Necrons origin story is them destroying an ancient race of “God like beings”! Ever heard of the Old Ones or the C’tan? They WERE the Q’s of the 40k universe until the Necrons wiped them out.

So your acknowledging that the Necrons not only had to deal with the Imperium and the Tyranids, but also the Orks (a race so warlike the KLINGONs look peaceful by comparison), the Eldar, and the Tau attacking them on a regular basis and that’s supposed to be an argument against me?

One advantage the Dominion had that you can’t deny is that they had years to prepare and marshal their forces before the war started, like they had all their forces ready, most of their agents were in place, and from what I heard the Federation, Klingons, and the Romulans weren’t allies from the get go, in fact all three of them had been at war in the past and things were still very tense between them at the start of Deep Space Nine. So really the Dominion have only themselves to blame for turning the rest of the galaxy against them.

The Necrons meanwhile started off in a much worse spot then the Dominion: they literally just came out of a million years hibernation, their forces were scattered across the Milky Way with no way to communicate with each other, and they barely had a second to collect themselves before the Imperium, Tyranids, and the Orks were suddenly at their doorstep wanting to wipe them out on principle. No chance at negotiation and no chance to prepare themselves and not only the majority of the scattered Necrons survive they actually WON more battles then they lost! That’s pretty goddamn impressive considering the Imperium and the Orks had genocided countless other races before them and the Tyranids had devoured other galaxies before the Milky Way and yet the Necrons beat the brakes off all three of them before they even amassed all their forces! 
 

If this is a war then the Necrons have this in the bag, they’ve survived and wiped out bigger and badder races then the Dominion.  

 

 

[Fox]

super interesting discussion.

I'm no expert on either contestant, but I was under the impression that Necron communicated amongst themselves in a cybernet binary which is essentially like computers communicating over a wifi. It's not a spoken language.

If so, that's not something easily emulated I don't imagine.

[RiotGear]

4 hours ago, Fox said:

super interesting discussion.

I'm no expert on either contestant, but I was under the impression that Necron communicated amongst themselves in a cybernet binary which is essentially like computers communicating over a wifi. It's not a spoken language.

If so, that's not something easily emulated I don't imagine.

The combadge Odo used through out DS9 was an extension of his own "body" it worked and interacted with other Federation/Bajoran computer and communication equipment just fine and Odo is nowhere near as skilled as The Founders when it comes to shape shifting ability.

[RiotGear]

9 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

I’ve already explained this to you, when you play as the Necrons in the board games you can encounter the Lacrymoles same as any other minor race and just like the other minor races all it takes is a pretty medium roll to defeat them which I’m pretty sure would involve figuring out how to spot them when they shapeshift. 

Are you saying that the Warhammer 40k board games not canon to the series now? You do realize that all the other novels, games, and wiki lore are based on what was established in the board games right? To cast doubt on the board games authenticity is to cast doubt on every other source of the Warhammer 40k franchise.

Now look when you say that you don’t know any material where they meet I assume you are referring to what you’ve read in the wiki pages right? Well those wiki pages tend to be written with the novels as their main sources and since said novels are told from the Imperium point of view yes it is hard to discern what species the Necrons have encountered outside of humanity, but again the novels and by extension the wiki’s lore does not supersede the board games so that point is moot anyways.

According to the Memory Alpha wiki page it specifically says that EVERY changeling has to change back to their natural liquid state every 16 to 18 hours or else they’ll start to deteriorate and “flake” away. Here’s the wiki’s link if you need to verify it:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Changeling
 

You can phrase it how you want but the fact is that the Chanelings have a limitation to their abilities that the Lacrymoles don’t, so no the changelings are not on another level to the Lacrymoles and it is very fair to compare the two and say that since the Necrons can handle the Lacrymoles then they should be more then able to handle the changelings.

I should also mention that the changelings limitation is a very serious weakness here since unlike with the Federation where the Changelings can hide in their personal rooms when they need to shift back, the average Necron warrior or even the Overlords won’t be provided the same privacy the Federation gives so they’ll have no where to hide when they inevitably need to change back.

So can the Necrons. Their weapons are lasers too.

Minutes? I doubt that highly RiotGear.

Firstly, in the original series it took the Dominion years to infiltrate and replace the Federation’s leaders and at least three of there agents were found out during that process. Now granted modern Earth is smaller and less advanced then the Federation, but are you honestly telling me that what they previously needed 2-3 years to accomplish they can now do in minutes flawlessly? Nah bruh, if their careful and patient they could maybe do it in a few weeks or a month but not in literal minutes.

Secondly, you are aware that almost every major world leader is surrounded 24/7 by photographers, news bloggers, bodyguards, and are constantly monitored and watched by each nations own secret service agency at almost every waking hour, you know this right? Yet your actually making the argument that the changelings can abduct and replace every one of these leaders without ANY of the following groups of people noticing? I’m not saying they could stop the Dominion from beaming them out, but if the goal is to do so while they are alone I would think it would take much MUCH longer then just a few minutes, cause most world leaders on average will spend half their day meeting and greeting each other so the Dominion will at least need to wait for almost a full day before they can get them alone.  

Thirdly, once the Necrons invade the Earth the Dominions infiltration plan goes out the window. Once an alien invasion starts almost every secret service agency goes on lockdown mode and will have their leader put in a secure bunker surrounded by agents at all times so no way will the Dominion get them alone at that point. Not until the Necrons wipe out Earth’s defense and conquer the planet in which case the Necrons will have won the scenario.

Look it’s like you said, in this scenario the Necrons will need to conquer the Earth before the Dominion, which as I’ve already explained they’ll only need a few hours to do and no way will the Dominion get to those leaders alone during the ensuring battle. But if we view this as who will win an all out battle on Earth between our two forces then the Necrons will win that too.

You mentioned the “intervention of God like beings” helping to beat the Dominion? The Necrons origin story is them destroying an ancient race of “God like beings”! Ever heard of the Old Ones or the C’tan? They WERE the Q’s of the 40k universe until the Necrons wiped them out.

So your acknowledging that the Necrons not only had to deal with the Imperium and the Tyranids, but also the Orks (a race so warlike the KLINGONs look peaceful by comparison), the Eldar, and the Tau attacking them on a regular basis and that’s supposed to be an argument against me?

One advantage the Dominion had that you can’t deny is that they had years to prepare and marshal their forces before the war started, like they had all their forces ready, most of their agents were in place, and from what I heard the Federation, Klingons, and the Romulans weren’t allies from the get go, in fact all three of them had been at war in the past and things were still very tense between them at the start of Deep Space Nine. So really the Dominion have only themselves to blame for turning the rest of the galaxy against them.

The Necrons meanwhile started off in a much worse spot then the Dominion: they literally just came out of a million years hibernation, their forces were scattered across the Milky Way with no way to communicate with each other, and they barely had a second to collect themselves before the Imperium, Tyranids, and the Orks were suddenly at their doorstep wanting to wipe them out on principle. No chance at negotiation and no chance to prepare themselves and not only the majority of the scattered Necrons survive they actually WON more battles then they lost! That’s pretty goddamn impressive considering the Imperium and the Orks had genocided countless other races before them and the Tyranids had devoured other galaxies before the Milky Way and yet the Necrons beat the brakes off all three of them before they even amassed all their forces! 
 

If this is a war then the Necrons have this in the bag, they’ve survived and wiped out bigger and badder races then the Dominion.  

 

 

Wait, are you suggesting that anything that happens. While people are playing the table top game should be considered to have actually happened in universe?

In which case a Hello Kitty Themed space marine chapter is real, there thousands of versions of Sly Marbo etc running around.

If we are running off that logic. All I'd have to do is play a game where the Necrons decided to commit mass suicide or give up there warring ways and start a K-pop group and you'd be out of luck. Cause your entire force would be dead or entertaining the masses.

Look, could the Necrons encounter Lacrymoles? Obviously yes. Are there rules that define how that encounter could go? Yes. Are there win conditions for both sides as defined by such rules? Also a yes. Do we know if the Necrons have encountered the Lacrymoles? No.

Yes Changelings have limitations. You happy, I never said they didn't. What I said was that there ability to mimic others. Fooled medical and sensor tech. Capable of isolating and rewriting individual memories. While the Lacrymoles are fairly easily detected by 40k scanners. So go head tell me again how those two situations compare.

As for privacy. The Necron are deeply hierarchal. If their Lord says give me some space. They are not going to respond with shooting them instead. The Founders also infiltrated the Klingons ( who live in cramped quarters and spend much of there lives communally ) and members of the Romulan intelligence service an even more paranoid branch of an already paranoid culture.

You doubt that? Hundreds of transporters, the ability to alter memories, and Necron attacks as cover. Should they need to eliminate witnesses.

Comparing the sensor and security checks of the modern earth. With what they had to beat to infiltrate the Federation is silly. 

The 40k version of Q you say. So they could think thousands of ships out of existence? Because the Q can and so can the Prophets.

What I'm saying is none of the 40k factions can commit to total war against a single enemy. Meaning when you say they are at war with both the Imperium and Eldar. It shouldn't be taken to mean they are standing alone against the full might of those two powers. Where as the with out access to the bulk of there forces the Dominion did stand against multiple enemies.

The Dominion has its own rise from the ashes to conquer large swathes of territory story as well, that took place centuries before the show. Even after the war with the Alliance they still controlled the Gamma Quadrant. Do the Necrons control a quarter of the galaxy?

The Dominion we saw in the show was hamstrung by outside circumstances and we never got to see them bring there full power to bear. That is not the situation here.

Here they can bring to bear the entire might of a power that brought an entire quarter of the galaxy to heel.

So yeah if it's a shooting war you want the Dominion can do that to. They just don't have to. They can beam aboard Necron ships for sabotage or subterfuge and can conquer earth the same way.

Once again. The Necrons have one option, one win condition. Hope they can Brute force there way to a win. Where as the Dominion can Brute force there way to a win or sneak there way to a win or a combination of any of those.

More options give the Dominion a better chance at winning.

 

 

 

[Fox]

1 hour ago, RiotGear said:

The combadge Odo used through out DS9 was an extension of his own "body" it worked and interacted with other Federation/Bajoran computer and communication equipment just fine and Odo is nowhere near as skilled as The Founders when it comes to shape shifting ability.

Hum, I didn't know that the communications badge itself was a product of his body.  That's pretty intricate.

All this info to digest definitely makes who to vote for difficult.

[RiotGear]

29 minutes ago, Fox said:

Hum, I didn't know that the communications badge itself was a product of his body.  That's pretty intricate.

All this info to digest definitely makes who to vote for difficult.

We have also seen Changelings turn into energy and in there natural form in the Great Link they communicate mentally, even outside of the link they seem to have some form of limited telepathic communication with each other.

So emulating computer signals and communicating non verbally should not be hard for them.

[Mercenaryblade]

2 hours ago, RiotGear said:

We have also seen Changelings turn into energy and in there natural form in the Great Link they communicate mentally, even outside of the link they seem to have some form of limited telepathic communication with each other.

So emulating computer signals and communicating non verbally should not be hard for them.

Hard disagree. Telepathic communication between your own species, (only in great link) is a lot different than something like computers talking to one another.

[RiotGear]

2 minutes ago, Mercenaryblade said:

Hard disagree. Telepathic communication between your own species, (only in great link) is a lot different than something like computers talking to one another.

It is different. My point was they will not be thrown off by not communicating verbally/visually. As they can mimic things like communicators interfacing with other computer/communication systems they've got the computer part of this down as well.

In other words my point was they are capable of mimicking electronic/computer communication and used to constantly sharing information and communicating mentally. So both parts of what they need to mimic Necron communication is something they are able to do and used to doing.

[Pizzaguy2995]

16 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Wait, are you suggesting that anything that happens. While people are playing the table top game should be considered to have actually happened in universe?

In which case a Hello Kitty Themed space marine chapter is real, there thousands of versions of Sly Marbo etc running around.

If we are running off that logic. All I'd have to do is play a game where the Necrons decided to commit mass suicide or give up there warring ways and start a K-pop group and you'd be out of luck. Cause your entire force would be dead or entertaining the masses.

Look, could the Necrons encounter Lacrymoles? Obviously yes. Are there rules that define how that encounter could go? Yes. Are there win conditions for both sides as defined by such rules? Also a yes. Do we know if the Necrons have encountered the Lacrymoles? No.

Wow your really getting desperate aren’t you? I was going to keep things civil and friendly but if you wanna act like an asshole I’ll treat you like an asshole.

Firstly, you can’t create your own space marine chapter stupid. If you actually did the proper on your opponent like I did you’d know you can’t make up your own units, you start with whatever the faction you play as has. You also can’t have them start K-Pop group because there’s no option for that in the rule books, heck I’m also pretty sure there are rules against actively declaring one of your units dead before they even battle an enemy force.

Again the Tabletop version of Warhammer 40k is the literal canon Bible of the entire franchise! So if it’s in the fucking rule books that when and if the Necrons encounter a shapeshifting race like the Lacrymoles they can and will defeat them easily then THAT IS CANON! How about you stop acting like a spoiled little brat being denied your favorite candy and accept that you lost this point like a fucking adult!?

16 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Yes Changelings have limitations. You happy, I never said they didn't. What I said was that there ability to mimic others. Fooled medical and sensor tech. Capable of isolating and rewriting individual memories. While the Lacrymoles are fairly easily detected by 40k scanners. So go head tell me again how those two situations compare.

As for privacy. The Necron are deeply hierarchal. If their Lord says give me some space. They are not going to respond with shooting them instead. The Founders also infiltrated the Klingons ( who live in cramped quarters and spend much of there lives communally ) and members of the Romulan intelligence service an even more paranoid branch of an already paranoid culture.

No but you did say that the Changelings are on a whole different level then the Lacrymoles which is blatantly wrong, both sides have their own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to shape shifting but there’s no evidence anywhere that any of there disguises are in anyway superior to the other. Has it ever occurred to you that just maybe the reason the Necrons sensory and medical tech succeeded where the Federation’s failed is because the former was built by a highly technologically advanced race that had been a galactic superpower since time immemorial while the latter was built by a race millions of years less advanced and had only mastered space travel only 2,000 years prior? Even the Imperium had been traveling through space longer then the Federation plus at the time of the tabletop game they’d probably had encountered the Lacrymoles several times already, so it makes sense that they are better equipped to not be fooled by shapeshifters then the Federation who are technologically less advanced and have never encountered the Changelings before.

And yes they would shoot their Overlords no question. They used to be highly hierarchical but now they value logic and cold hard decisions above all, so if any Necron even an Overlord does anything out of character then logic dictates that they must check to be certain! I doubt any real Overlord would be offended by a subordinate making certain a shapeshifter hasn’t infiltrated their ranks plus their auto-repair systems could easily repair a shot through the chest so why would he be mad at something so minor?

16 hours ago, RiotGear said:

You doubt that? Hundreds of transporters, the ability to alter memories, and Necron attacks as cover. Should they need to eliminate witnesses.

Comparing the sensor and security checks of the modern earth. With what they had to beat to infiltrate the Federation is silly.

Transporters? You mean the beam me up Scotty type? Like I said almost every world leader is surrounded 24/7 by reporters, photographers, and secret service agents, you just gonna beam them up in front of all of them and then alter ALL their memories? That’s what I highly doubt. If the goal is to do this without getting caught it will take them a month at least! 
 

Your right modern Earth isn’t as advanced as Star Treks but their not caveman! It’s very fair to say that what took them 2-3 years to do to the Federation would probably take a month to do to modern Earth if they don’t want to get caught.

16 hours ago, RiotGear said:

The 40k version of Q you say. So they could think thousands of ships out of existence? Because the Q can and so can the Prophets.

Actually yes. The Old Ones were the creators of the Webway, a trans dimensional travel system that can transport ships and people from one corner of the galaxy to the other. They were also the creators of 40k’s humanity, the Aeldari, and the Orks (then called Krorks). And the C’tan devoured entire stars for sustenance.

16 hours ago, RiotGear said:

What I'm saying is none of the 40k factions can commit to total war against a single enemy. Meaning when you say they are at war with both the Imperium and Eldar. It shouldn't be taken to mean they are standing alone against the full might of those two powers. Where as the with out access to the bulk of there forces the Dominion did stand against multiple enemies.

The Dominion has its own rise from the ashes to conquer large swathes of territory story as well, that took place centuries before the show. Even after the war with the Alliance they still controlled the Gamma Quadrant. Do the Necrons control a quarter of the galaxy?

The Dominion we saw in the show was hamstrung by outside circumstances and we never got to see them bring there full power to bear. That is not the situation here.

Here they can bring to bear the entire might of a power that brought an entire quarter of the galaxy to heel.

So yeah if it's a shooting war you want the Dominion can do that to. They just don't have to. They can beam aboard Necron ships for sabotage or subterfuge and can conquer earth the same way.

Once again. The Necrons have one option, one win condition. Hope they can Brute force there way to a win. Where as the Dominion can Brute force there way to a win or sneak there way to a win or a combination of any of those.

More options give the Dominion a better chance at winning

You have exactly TWO methods of winning and neither one is a viable option.

Like I keep telling you it’s completely unreasonable to say that the Dominion would be able to abduct and replace the Earth’s leaders within a month, never mind within the couple of hours it’ll take the Necrons to subjugate the planet.

So really you have ONE way to win, going to war with the Necrons and I’m telling you now the Dominion have no idea the world of pain their in for.

Firstly, no not ALL the 40k factions are at war with each other. The Imperium, the Eldar and the Tau may dislike and mistrust each other but it’s pretty obvious to all of them that there are FAR bigger threats that they need to handle before they even think about going to war with each other. In fact according to wiki lore, which you love so much, the Imperium’s main focus right now is destroying the Necrons who they view as the biggest threat out of all the factions they’ve encountered. The lore also states that the most recent Tyranid Hive Fleet landed smack dab in the middle of the biggest Necron territory in the galaxy so those two are very much focused on each other at the moment.

So both the Imperium and the Tyranids are focused on destroying the Necrons, who again had most of their forces scattered across the galaxy and have little to no information on who their attackers are or their military tactics and yet are absolutely kicking the crap out of both of them! You say that the Dominion brought an entire quarter of a galaxy to heel? The Necrons brought an Imperium that had conquered HALF a galaxy to heel, as well as the Tyranids who have wiped out MULTIPLE GALAXIES before them!

Here’s a final point your not acknowledging: the Necrons are gonna give the Dominion a war FAR different then what they got from the Star Trek factions. The Federation is first and foremost an exploration and diplomatic force, not military. Their primary focus is maintaining peace in the galaxy and even when they fight they’re almost never the aggressor and go out of their way to avoid killing if they can help it. The Klingons may be more violent then the Feds, but even they have have a code of honor when it comes to warfare and that involves not committing war crimes and relenting when the enemy is defeated. Even the Romulans aren’t that bad, they wish to rule and subjugate their enemies not destroy them.

The Necrons don’t want peace, they don’t want to rule, they don’t even want to fight you, they want to kill everyone and everything that exists! The Dominion are not gonna be prepared for just how utterly ruthless the Necrons are gonna be to them. When a Dominion force is driven off a planet, they’ll think that the Necrons will let them go and consolidate the planet they won. They won’t. The Necrons will chase them down and kill them all! When a Dominion force is surrounded by Necron warriors they’ll surrender, thinking they’ll be treated as prisoners of war. They won’t. The Necrons will shoot them where they stand and move on. When the Dominion has finally had enough of war and try to invite the The Silent King to a peace summit there will be no talking. The King will silently listen to the Founders try to bargain for their poor pathetic lives, probably say something along the lines of “we can’t let war define who we are” and then when their all done talking he’ll walk over to them and tear them all to pieces.

The Dominion might think they know war but they don’t. The Necrons will educate them.

 

 

[Pizzaguy2995]

15 hours ago, Fox said:

Hum, I didn't know that the communications badge itself was a product of his body.  That's pretty intricate.

All this info to digest definitely makes who to vote for difficult.

In a battle of evil vs evil always vote for the blacker shade of evil.

The Dominion still think they’re the good guys and that’s why they’ll lose.

The Necrons know they’re the bad guys, that’s why they’ll win.

[RiotGear]

40 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Wow your really getting desperate aren’t you? I was going to keep things civil and friendly but if you wanna act like an asshole I’ll treat you like an asshole.

Firstly, you can’t create your own space marine chapter stupid. If you actually did the proper on your opponent like I did you’d know you can’t make up your own units, you start with whatever the faction you play as has. You also can’t have them start K-Pop group because there’s no option for that in the rule books, heck I’m also pretty sure there are rules against actively declaring one of your units dead before they even battle an enemy force.

Again the Tabletop version of Warhammer 40k is the literal canon Bible of the entire franchise! So if it’s in the fucking rule books that when and if the Necrons encounter a shapeshifting race like the Lacrymoles they can and will defeat them easily then THAT IS CANON! How about you stop acting like a spoiled little brat being denied your favorite candy and accept that you lost this point like a fucking adult!?

No but you did say that the Changelings are on a whole different level then the Lacrymoles which is blatantly wrong, both sides have their own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to shape shifting but there’s no evidence anywhere that any of there disguises are in anyway superior to the other. Has it ever occurred to you that just maybe the reason the Necrons sensory and medical tech succeeded where the Federation’s failed is because the former was built by a highly technologically advanced race that had been a galactic superpower since time immemorial while the latter was built by a race millions of years less advanced and had only mastered space travel only 2,000 years prior? Even the Imperium had been traveling through space longer then the Federation plus at the time of the tabletop game they’d probably had encountered the Lacrymoles several times already, so it makes sense that they are better equipped to not be fooled by shapeshifters then the Federation who are technologically less advanced and have never encountered the Changelings before.

And yes they would shoot their Overlords no question. They used to be highly hierarchical but now they value logic and cold hard decisions above all, so if any Necron even an Overlord does anything out of character then logic dictates that they must check to be certain! I doubt any real Overlord would be offended by a subordinate making certain a shapeshifter hasn’t infiltrated their ranks plus their auto-repair systems could easily repair a shot through the chest so why would he be mad at something so minor?

Transporters? You mean the beam me up Scotty type? Like I said almost every world leader is surrounded 24/7 by reporters, photographers, and secret service agents, you just gonna beam them up in front of all of them and then alter ALL their memories? That’s what I highly doubt. If the goal is to do this without getting caught it will take them a month at least! 
 

Your right modern Earth isn’t as advanced as Star Treks but their not caveman! It’s very fair to say that what took them 2-3 years to do to the Federation would probably take a month to do to modern Earth if they don’t want to get caught.

Actually yes. The Old Ones were the creators of the Webway, a trans dimensional travel system that can transport ships and people from one corner of the galaxy to the other. They were also the creators of 40k’s humanity, the Aeldari, and the Orks (then called Krorks). And the C’tan devoured entire stars for sustenance.

You have exactly TWO methods of winning and neither one is a viable option.

Like I keep telling you it’s completely unreasonable to say that the Dominion would be able to abduct and replace the Earth’s leaders within a month, never mind within the couple of hours it’ll take the Necrons to subjugate the planet.

So really you have ONE way to win, going to war with the Necrons and I’m telling you now the Dominion have no idea the world of pain their in for.

Firstly, no not ALL the 40k factions are at war with each other. The Imperium, the Eldar and the Tau may dislike and mistrust each other but it’s pretty obvious to all of them that there are FAR bigger threats that they need to handle before they even think about going to war with each other. In fact according to wiki lore, which you love so much, the Imperium’s main focus right now is destroying the Necrons who they view as the biggest threat out of all the factions they’ve encountered. The lore also states that the most recent Tyranid Hive Fleet landed smack dab in the middle of the biggest Necron territory in the galaxy so those two are very much focused on each other at the moment.

So both the Imperium and the Tyranids are focused on destroying the Necrons, who again had most of their forces scattered across the galaxy and have little to no information on who their attackers are or their military tactics and yet are absolutely kicking the crap out of both of them! You say that the Dominion brought an entire quarter of a galaxy to heel? The Necrons brought an Imperium that had conquered HALF a galaxy to heel, as well as the Tyranids who have wiped out MULTIPLE GALAXIES before them!

Here’s a final point your not acknowledging: the Necrons are gonna give the Dominion a war FAR different then what they got from the Star Trek factions. The Federation is first and foremost an exploration and diplomatic force, not military. Their primary focus is maintaining peace in the galaxy and even when they fight they’re almost never the aggressor and go out of their way to avoid killing if they can help it. The Klingons may be more violent then the Feds, but even they have have a code of honor when it comes to warfare and that involves not committing war crimes and relenting when the enemy is defeated. Even the Romulans aren’t that bad, they wish to rule and subjugate their enemies not destroy them.

The Necrons don’t want peace, they don’t want to rule, they don’t even want to fight you, they want to kill everyone and everything that exists! The Dominion are not gonna be prepared for just how utterly ruthless the Necrons are gonna be to them. When a Dominion force is driven off a planet, they’ll think that the Necrons will let them go and consolidate the planet they won. They won’t. The Necrons will chase them down and kill them all! When a Dominion force is surrounded by Necron warriors they’ll surrender, thinking they’ll be treated as prisoners of war. They won’t. The Necrons will shoot them where they stand and move on. When the Dominion has finally had enough of war and try to invite the The Silent King to a peace summit there will be no talking. The King will silently listen to the Founders try to bargain for their poor pathetic lives, probably say something along the lines of “we can’t let war define who we are” and then when their all done talking he’ll walk over to them and tear them all to pieces.

The Dominion might think they know war but they don’t. The Necrons will educate them.

 

 

Your such a pleasant happy person aren't you. I'm sorry people not agreeing with you makes so upset.

I'm going to have to do it again though. Cause it looks like according to Games Workshop ( the company that owns 40K ) you can make your own chapter. 

Those rules state:

"If you have created your own chapter/hive/fleet/Sept/stormhost etc..."

Discussed here

 

The K-pop things was a bit of a joke. I still naively thought we were engaged in a good natured lightheaded vs debate about fictional characters on the internet. Not a life a death struggle for the future of mankind.

You may not be able to declare your units dead, but can you target your own units or get caught in the blast radius of your own weapons.

You also didn't address how we deal with named characters like Sly Marbo etc who have miniatures and rules to with them. If I play a game with him and he dies. Is he dead in the 40k universe?

Seriously dude, the rules outline how things could/should go down if forces meet. They do not say that those forces have met.

On top of that, the same rules will allow for situations where Lacrymoles defeat Necrons.

I said the Founders we're on another level because the can and do fool extensive medical screening on top of being able to turn into complex machinery, energy etc.

Can the Lacrymoles do those things?

As for the 40k is older so must have better tech argument. First off the Dominions not new. Second off can 40k sensors do things like isolate specific memories in a brain scan?

The Necrons aren't hierarchal, but they have Overlords? The nature of the way they have spread out means that they have developed very strict and very specific rules for how to interact and whose in charge when they do.

However even if they decide on shooting first and asking questions later. First off depending on the weapon the Founder may be able to fool them. Secondly it disrupts operations and not just in that brief moment. From that point on anytime a Necron believes another Necron is acting wrong they are going to start shooting each other all willy nilly. That's not good for cohesion or effective military operations.

Yes the beam me Scotty transporter that can beam multiple people at a time and is on all the Dominion ships. They could beam up entire security details and staff and wipe there memories if they so choose. They could beam Jem'hadar down and wipe everybody out and leave a couple of Changelings posing as the leader in question and another survivor. Claim they fought off a Necron attack. Etc frankly the possibilities are extensive. When you've got Dominion all in one place.

I'm not talking about a piece of technology, like the webway, to move there own ships. I'm talking about looking at fleets of ships they don't want around and "snapping" them out of existence with a mere thought.

Let's see ways to win. Politics, subterfuge, sabotage, war..point is even if it's just two ways to win. That's twice as many as the Necron have. The Necrons only chance is to shoot there way. In battle you never want to be the side with fewer options.

So the Imperium and the Eldar have signed peace accords and no longer fight each other? The Orks aren't still making WAAAGH on everybody? Has the grimdark future of the 41 millennium finally found peace?

The Necrons took over the Imperium? And destroyed the Tyranids?

I don't think that happened.

As to your bit about how the Dominion doesn't war. Grimderp 40k fanboying. Both these groups know war. The Founders faced genocide in there early days and have done so to others. The Jem'Hadar are bred and engineered not to surrender etc.

The only side bringing something to the table the other, as far we can tell, has never dealt with is the Dominion, with regard to there shape shifting and infiltration abilities.

 

 

 

[Twogunkid]

The Founders, when the Cardassians decide to turn on the Dominion, go to wipe out the Cardassians. They are certainly genocidal.

 

Further, the Founders in the Alpha Quadrant basically build and clone all their troops in the Alpha Quadrant. Basically they had a beach head that was able to sustain a war with the three major powers of the Alpha Quadrant with only the down on its luck rump state of the Cardassians as an ally. (Later they brought the Breen in as mercenaries)