12:3 - Captain Marvel / Shazam vs. Martian Manhunter

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 3

Captain Marvel / Shazam

Slot: The Team's Big Gun
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Captain Marvel / Shazam at this Wiki
Official Site: D.C Comics

Martian Manhunter

Slot: The Team's Big Gun
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Martian Manhunter at this Wiki
Official Site: DC Comics

Battle Terrain
Combat Terrain: Mines Of Moria

[Peypeypeypey]

If he's not jobbing, MM is a real threat. Intangibility and high-level telepathy is a mean combo. I want to say Shazam is immune to/highly resistant to most forms of telepathy but I might be remembering wrong. In a slugfest it would be very close, and they both have a lot of varied powers. I'm leaning MM but I'm not sure

[C.T.]

Similar strength, insane telepathic ability(given what he did to Despero who is not a slouch in that department either) and just having a power set that includes phasing and shapeshifting, thinking J’onn takes this one.

[Fox]

Justice League Vol 2 #6 suggests Shazam.

https://dc-multiverse.quora.com/Shazam-vs-Martian-Manhunter-whod-win-that?share=1

But obviously they are well matched and I'm thinking it could go either way.

[Twogunkid]

Ole Billy Batson has the definite edge in physical abilities. Billy's enhanced wisdom does make him more resistant to telepathy which is Jonn's trump card. Unlike J'onn, Billy does not have an easily encountered weakness in the form of fire and they are in Moria which has a balarog... a demon... made of fire.

The goblins of Moria are no threat to either party. The Balarog is, but it is a magical foe of fire. Edge Billy Batson.

[C.T.]

Yeah, given what he did to Despero, I don’t think that resistance to telepathy will help that much, and it’s going to be difficult for Shazam to hit a mind-reading intangible opponent so…

And just because he has a weakness doesn’t mean it’s going to be exploitable every time it’s potentially around. J’onn’s no fool. He can keep the Balrog away from himself.

[Twogunkid]

Do you guys know the issue the Despero feat is in?

because I cannot find the one you are referencing.

 

The Wisdom of Solomon should be more than enough to protect Billy from a telepathy oko. Billy has dealt with mind control before and time and time again has emerged triumphant.

[C.T.]

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/SdOVd

[Twogunkid]

Context is important there J'onn seems to have eschewed his traditional morals. If we do that, I think the infected by the Batman who Laughs Shazam feats are valid too which include beating up easily Rao, Thor, Ares, and whole pantheons of gods.

 

I also would be curious as to J'onn's best speed feats because Billy has him beat there I feel. He has rearranged global weather patterns, keeps speed with superman consistently, speed blitzed Bizarro, Metallo, Parasite, and Solomon Grundy without effort, and held off an entire mind controlled justice league (including Wonder Woman, J'onn, and Kyle Rainer) by himself. (All of these feats on separate instances but still damn impressive)

[C.T.]

If Shazam and J’onn are fighting each other to the best of their ability here, which both should imo, then we do have to assume they eschew at least some of their morals since they wouldn’t normally fight each other.

As for the gods, that is impressive, but it’s also something I can see J’onn also doing if he cut loose, and also that doesn’t really address the whole shutting down the mind thing, despite Despero having strong resistance.

And ditto J’onn with:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/5/59855/2302968-justiceleague_8_thegroup_022.jpg

As for speed, he can keep up with Superman and Flash: https://m.imgur.com/a/3JZFe

 

[Twogunkid]

Shazam is going to have to outthink J'onn as in physical feats we seem to match up keenly. Billy can pull on that martian weakness to fire by invoking divine lightning and he may come up with that strategy as the wisdom of Solomon can grant such insights.

Here it lets him instantly see through Mr. Mind's telepathic illusion.

In a comatose state manages to fight of mind control

For people who should be able to OKO him he gets acknowledgement of a good fight from the Spectre

Fights off Neron's attempt to break his mind. Notably the only member of the Justice League in hell to fight it off and that is while his powers were being mystically dampened.

and best for last, with no sign of strain effortless can hold and wield the spear of destiny.

I feel we can say that J'onn even bloodlusted cannot telepathically secure the instawin. This will come to blows and the Mightiest Mortal is better suited for that. J'onn is tricky, but the Wisdom of Solomon and Courage of Achilles give Billy more than enough ways to try and even things out and that may mean using environmental factors like the Balarog to his advantage.

[C.T.]

Yeah he’s got good telepathic defenses but we’ve seen MM completely break other remarkable telepaths like Despero, get through the telepathic defenses of things like Mageddon and even get into Spectre’s mind. He can memory wipe Leaguers on a whim, even those that have telepathic resistance also: https://pm1.narvii.com/6083/02467ad4d45571cd01f41e1f6fb7acb06e099a59_hq.jpg

So no, gotta hard disagree on that one that J’onn couldn’t secure a win telepathically. He definitely could. He’d also win a fistfight imo because their strength is more or less equal, he has intangibility on top of that, making him impossible to strike if J’onn wills it, plus the ability to tap into his mind and see what strategies or attacks Billy would go for, plus his natural shapeshifting which even in purely a fistfight scenario helps too, since Shazam only has two arms but J’onn could have four, or six, or more. The more to block and strike back with. 
 

But again, I feel just going for the telepathic assault first is the best approach and that it would work and prevent any exploitation of J’onn’s weakness either through lightning or the balrog.

[Twogunkid]

J'onn had already hate all those leaguers let him into their minds in your scan. The massive trust of the JLA meant they had no defenses against his plan in your most recent example.

I say Billy's defense is strong enough courtesy of the Neron example. Neron is formidable when it comes to breaking down someone's mind and the fact that only Billy could stand up to it should say something. The spear of destiny feat also reflects Billy's massive mental strength as he is the only one who has been able to resist it's pull while holding it.

 

I have one other example I hadn't previously used which is that Black Adam and Captain Marvel have effectively the same powers and J'onn was unable to access Black Adam's Mind. (I hadn't used it because you could argue Black Adam's powers are more developed over thousands of years)

To strength feats, J'onn is impresive, but Billy simply is more so. He takes hit after hit from an Eclipso possessed Superman trying to kill him and keeps going. In the same JLA run you just referenced for the telepathy feat, Billy knocks Superman out in two punches. That's about as good a physical feat as they get. (I cannot find a scan of it and my basement storage is currently packed in preparation for a move). Billy has fought Lobo on an even playing field and perhaps even in an evironment that favors Lobo.

and

he wins.

He humiliates Ibac

and has created a Black Hole with a punch (I didn't know about this feat so take with a grain of salt.

Takes on a monster that had absorbed all the powers of Elongated Man, Superman, Aquaman, AND THE MARTIAN MANHUNTER and is able to hold it off long enough for the remainder of the JLA to reverse the process.

Funky shapeshifting and phasing are nothing new to Billy and for a guy who should never get hit and should fight as a shapeshifter most of the time J'onn fights as a flying Brick.

I think worth noting is that J'onn also has a history of just losing for no good reason all the time. The Martian Manhunter is the Mr. Worf of the Justice League. Need to make a foe look scary? Have him beat J'onn. It always happens.

[C.T.]

But Despero, Mageddon and the Spectre don't have that level of trust and all have incredible mental defenses, I just don't buy that Billy's are better than the Spectre's or any of those really. Straight up. And, yeah, that Black Adam example is impressive but eh it's not really 1 to 1 imo. On paper they're the same but yeah like you said the experience and being more developed. Enough so that it took damn near everybody to stop him when he went on a rampage, J'onn, and Power Girl, and Wonder Woman and multiple Green Lanterns and Steel and a crapton of other people on top of that. Don't think Shazam could manage the same. Also, I don't know how that qualifies as a win against Lobo? He's still on his feet and eager to fight and Billy just disappears...though I am unfamiliar with that battle.

4 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Funky shapeshifting and phasing are nothing new to Billy and for a guy who should never get hit and should fight as a shapeshifter most of the time J'onn fights as a flying Brick.

I think worth noting is that J'onn also has a history of just losing for no good reason all the time. The Martian Manhunter is the Mr. Worf of the Justice League. Need to make a foe look scary? Have him beat J'onn. It always happens.

Yeah but these are just the way comics go. If he used all his powers to their fullest extent, a lot of the fights he lost he likely wouldn't have. Same with being worfed, that's just how a lot of fiction goes sometimes, but here, with the presumption that he goes all out with all his abilities, I just don't see him losing this battle. He's in the same general ballpark of being as strong and as tough, enough that any actual difference between them in that regard just seems like splitting hairs. He's untouchable by Shazam if he wants to be, given intangibility. He can attack him mentally with extremely damaging attacks while he's intangible(seriously, the whole thing with Despero that it might take the guy weeks to recover is ridiculous, Despero is a team buster villain a lot of the time), even if he just fights like a brick which he shouldn't and I don't think he would but let's say he did, his shapeshifting means he'd have more limbs which can't be understated in a fistfight. If Billy throws one punch, J'onn could just catch it with his own hand and then punch back with 3 other blows at the same time, or more. 

His power has been acknowledged more than once.

 

 

[Twogunkid]

This is an aide from the main debate I had, but if we are assuming a Shazam who laughs type entity vs flaming martian entity then what is stopping Shazam from empowering a bunch of goblins or the balarog to be additional help against J'onn?

 

Also for an all time great speed feat how about this one?

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Captain Marvel / Shazam: 6
Martian Manhunter: 6

[C.T.]

Better than a loss

[DSkillz]

A tie is probably the expected result here. I couldn't even decide on who to vote for myself. 

[Twogunkid]

Well argued CT. That Despero feat is a nasty example for J'onn.