12:3 - Gaston vs. Queen La

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 3

Gaston

Slot: The Team's Disney Fairy Tale Villain
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Gaston at this Wiki
Official Site: Disney

Queen La

Slot: The Team's Disney Fairy Tale Villain
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Queen La at this Wiki
Official Site: Disney

Battle Terrain
Disney Villains: Turn Elsa to the dark side

[Peypeypeypey]

This really doesn't seem like Gaston's cup of tea. I wouldn't even say Gaston is on the "Dark side" really. He's a possessive, manipulative, macho dude, but I'm sure he think he's doing the right thing

[Mercenaryblade]

La has got this she can be very manipulative and will likely use the fact that she's also a queen to get Elsa to listen to her. Plus she's got some serious magic. 

Gaston would make sexist comments and turn into a popsicle. 

 

[RiotGear]

34 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

This really doesn't seem like Gaston's cup of tea. I wouldn't even say Gaston is on the "Dark side" really. He's a possessive, manipulative, macho dude, but I'm sure he think he's doing the right thing

Most villains think they are doing the right thing.

[RiotGear]

2 minutes ago, Mercenaryblade said:

La has got this she can be very manipulative and will likely use the fact that she's also a queen to get Elsa to listen to her. Plus she's got some serious magic. 

Gaston would make sexist comments and turn into a popsicle. 

 

Most of La's success is based on magic, not manipulation.

Even her subjects created via magic.

[Mercenaryblade]

2 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Most of La's success is based on magic, not manipulation.

Even her subjects created via magic.

A moot point she's got both at her disposal, and is leagues ahead of Gaston for this challenge. 

[Peypeypeypey]

1 minute ago, RiotGear said:

Most villains think they are doing the right thing.

That's not really true in Disney. Many of them openly acknowledge they're outright evil. Scar, Dr. Facilier, Shere Khan, Mim, etc. Most Disney Villains revel in their evilness, at least the early ones

[RiotGear]

If Gaston has decided he needs to sway Elsa to his cause.

It shouldn't be hard for him. Gaston is actually very clever and manipulative. With all the faults the audience perceives in him. His people and his town love him.

He is also fairly creative and quick on to uptake. 

He went from having the town laughing at the idea of the Beast, before being shown the magic mirror, to transitioning straight into inciting a mob. When shown the mirror. He was also not slowed by the introduction of magic/the Beast.

He is strong and confident. With at least an exterior sense of traditional proprietary, but also the ability to exist outside of society and relax.

These things are all going to appeal to Elsa. As is the fact that he is not mustache twirling evil, bent on global domination and that he won't allow himself to be afraid of her.

It's worth remembering that Belle ( who has a very particular personality ) aside Gaston was actually quite the ladies man.

Gaston is going to provide a strong shoulder for Elsa to lean on, and that is what Elsa tends to look for, support.

Once he's got here ear. It's gy to be easy enough to bender to his causes.

[Mercenaryblade]

3 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

If Gaston has decided he needs to sway Elsa to his cause.

It shouldn't be hard for him. Gaston is actually very clever and manipulative. With all the faults the audience perceives in him. His people and his town love him.

He is also fairly creative and quick on to uptake. 

He went from having the town laughing at the idea of the Beast, before being shown the magic mirror, to transitioning straight into inciting a mob. When shown the mirror. He was also not slowed by the introduction of magic/the Beast.

He is strong and confident. With at least an exterior sense of traditional proprietary, but also the ability to exist outside of society and relax.

These things are all going to appeal to Elsa. As is the fact that he is not mustache twirling evil, bent on global domination and that he won't allow himself to be afraid of her.

It's worth remembering that Belle ( who has a very particular personality ) aside Gaston was actually quite the ladies man.

Gaston is going to provide a strong shoulder for Elsa to lean on, and that is what Elsa tends to look for, support.

Once he's got here ear. It's gy to be easy enough to bender to his causes.

Gaston has a lot in common with Prince Hans. I'm sure Elsa would see right through him having interacted with Hans before. 

La however is a fellow queen and woman, with strange powers.

I really think she's got the advantage here.  

[RiotGear]

5 minutes ago, Mercenaryblade said:

Gaston has a lot in common with Prince Hans. I'm sure Elsa would see right through him having interacted with Hans before. 

La however is a fellow queen and woman, with strange powers.

I really think she's got the advantage here.  

I can see the comparison to Hans. In some ways, but Hans was playing a part in way Gaston never did nor needed to.

Gaston won't be overly saccharin nice the way Hans was.

Nor like you said would Elsa want him to. Elsa is not looking for a yes man. She would however appreciate somebody who has his own life and purpose. That wants to support hers, but never loses himself.

The thing about Gaston is that he doesn't have any grand scheme to take over or destroy the world. His dark side doesn't look like that.

It looks like a cabin in the woods where he and Elsa are surrounded by friends and family.

You going to tell me that's not going to appeal to Elsa more than murder mayhem and the conquest of Africa?

[Fox]

I definitely see an argument for both.  However, I am leaning Gaston here.

Elsa is already on a road towards the dark side before her redemptive arc towards the end of Frozen.  What puts her on that road is the reactions of all the people around her.  It is the act of first her parents, and then the towns people in general that sets her on that path.

Now, nobody whips up a town into a frenzy, closes their minds and hardens their hearts like Gaston.

There was a comparison made to Prince Hans and I think it is a poor comparison. Gaston is on another level - especially with Leadership and Charisma skills that bring the entire town to his point of view.

He's run this playbook before - frame the target as evil (Elsa), march the entire town at to her castle, some townsfolk die, Elsa is never welcomed into the town again.... and for good measure, Gaston gets the sister back in town committed to the insane asylum.

Elsa's journey to the dark side is complete.

[Pizzaguy2995]

Eh, I personally think Gaston’s manipulation of Belle’s town isn’t as impressive as it appears to be. It’s established early on in the film that this place is a small, quiet and conservative town and the folks there are pretty old fashion and simple. As such they probably navigate pretty easily to Gaston because he’s everything society at the time expected a man to be: strong, confident, and boastful! The Beast on the other hand was scary and unnatural, so to say it was major manipulation on Gaston’s part to rile them into a mob against such an obvious threat is a bit much. They probably would have followed any red blooded man who wanted to go after the monster in the woods.

Also a reminder to voters that Elsa is very much not simple, small minded or old fashion but intelligent, level headed, and more strong willed then she appears. Traits like being loud and a braggart won’t impress her as easily as it would a close minded community plus as other’s pointed out she definitely won’t be a fan of his sexist remarks. On top of that Gaston has likely never seen magic before and he’d likely be too fearful of her powers to try to manipulate her.

Elsa above all else wants to understand her powers better and as a sorceress Queen La is someone Elsa would want to be around and learn how to control her powers from her. Queen La could could then take full advantage of her mentor role to influence her into thinking that the non magical people are beneath them and that she should freely use her powers to take what she wants when she wants it. Elsa would thus grow into a an all-powerful and ruthless Queen who freely uses her powers to take back her kingdom and punish the fools who dared call her a monster! 
 

[Pizzaguy2995]

3 hours ago, Fox said:

There was a comparison made to Prince Hans and I think it is a poor comparison. Gaston is on another level - especially with Leadership and Charisma skills that bring the entire town to his point of view.

Bruh, no. Gaston is a boorish brute who only managed to manipulated a small, backwater village that don’t even read books.

Hans not only fooled a far more advanced and enlightened society (one that allowed Queens to rule alone) he actually fooled the real life audience into thinking he was a charming and nice guy.

Seriously no one in the theaters gasped and screamed “WTF” when Gaston was revealed as the villain in Beauty and the Beast.

[Fox]

24 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Bruh, no. Gaston is a boorish brute who only managed to manipulated a small, backwater village that don’t even read books.

Hans not only fooled a far more advanced and enlightened society (one that allowed Queens to rule alone) he actually fooled the real life audience into thinking he was a charming and nice guy.

Seriously no one in the theaters gasped and screamed “WTF” when Gaston was revealed as the villain in Beauty and the Beast.

For one, Gaston doesn't need to fool anyone. He naturally draws commoners to him with his leadership aura.

It's part of his bit... there's a song about it.  I'll say it's his power.

For two, the townsfolk ... the hoi polloi if you will ... occupying the apparently middle-ages town of Arendelle aren't that enlightened as far as I can tell.  They are the common clay that Gaston will easily mold into a force ready to ensure wicked Elsa is dealt with.

[Mercenaryblade]

9 minutes ago, Fox said:

For one, Gaston doesn't need to fool anyone. He naturally draws commoners to him with his leadership aura.

It's part of his bit... there's a song about it.  I'll say it's his power.

For two, the townsfolk ... the hoi polloi if you will ... occupying the apparently middle-ages town of Arendelle aren't that enlightened as far as I can tell.  They are the common clay that Gaston will easily mold into a force ready to ensure wicked Elsa is dealt with.

Gaston is like the popular jock at your local small town high school, Arendale would be the big city that doesn't care who he is. 

[Fox]

1 minute ago, Mercenaryblade said:

Gaston is like the popular jock at your local small town high school, Arendale would be the big city that doesn't care who he is. 

I can easily see the disconnect here, and that's fine.  I'm in the minority on this topic.

I am of the opinion that Gaston possess a innate super power which I have described as a leadership aura.  I base this on the song about the character and my observations from the film.

Nobody else is giving the character that benefit. I get that.

[Mercenaryblade]

2 minutes ago, Fox said:

I can easily see the disconnect here, and that's fine.  I'm in the minority on this topic.

I am of the opinion that Gaston possess a innate super power which I have described as a leadership aura.  I base this on the song about the character and my observations from the film.

Nobody else is giving the character that benefit. I get that.

Indeed, I saw it another way. I just saw that as local hero worship. Everyone knows him, Arendale he's just some arrogant out of town bumpkin.  

But I digress, I'm repeating myself. 

[Twogunkid]

La has a major problem. She relies on mind control. Stooping to manipulation isn't her thing. I give it to Gaston just because he has convinced a whole town he is the bee's knees.

[RiotGear]

So far there have been three purposes outcomes for Gaston interacting with Elsa.

Interestingly they are all victory conditions for Gaston in one way or another.

Let's look at those purposed as clear wins.

1. Gaston preys on Elsa's loneliness and need for privacy, support, comfort, and family. 

Ends up take her to live in a rustic hunting lodge surrounded by all of that. To live out his own more mundane an insidious version of the dark side.

2. Like Fox said. Gaston basically runs the playbook against Elsa that he already did against the Beast. A situation that has proven to push Elsa to the dark side. 

Now for the one that people think is Gaston failing.

3. Some variation of Gaston insults Elsa and she turns him into a popsicle.

So in this outcome we have our good person, our hero turning to assault, murder, or kidnapping. All because some one annoyed her. How is that not turning dark?

Let's address a few other things.

There seems to be consensus that Elsa would react to Gaston's sexism the way a modern woman would. 

I see no evidence of this in Frozen. If anything Elsa does her best to be demure, conservative, etc. She is the quite traditionalist of the sisters. 

Yes she loses her cool, but that is not who she wants to be.

Also the idea that Arrendale is way more progressive than France because it allows for Queens. Is not really accurate. Not only do we know that Arrendale engages in colonization of the indigenous population and tries to eras there existence, but historically kingdoms that allowed queens to rule alone. We're just as sexist in every other matter as those that didn't.

England has Queen, but it's noble titles can't pass to daughters and it's had queens that promised to honor and obey when they were married.

In other words Gaston's world views are not going to be out of place in Arrendale.

We should probably also talk about the idea that Belle's home town. Is a backwater dump, full of moronic bigots.

Sure Belle says as much, but she is also an angsty 17 year old longing for adventure and magic.

Every teen goes through a phase where they want to escape home and think nobody understands them.

However. If you actually look at what we are shown. 

We see a town that supports multiple food vendors, a dress shop, a book store etc.

We see a number of merchants and craftsman. Sure we see farmers and live stock as well, but the town has a bustling town square. Full of vendors. Vendors and customers exchanging currency. We also see that much of the town has enough leisure time to hang out in the tavern. They also hunt recreationally. 

This is not a village of dirt farmers scrapping by. This is a town of merchants and craftsman with money and time. Who read and are fairly fashion forward, based on likely time period and clothes seen.

Same goes for Gaston. While a point is made to suggest he can't read. He can count and has fairly developed vocabulary. ( He uses expectorate in a sentence and uses it correctly. ), And is an accomplished hunter. Which means contrary to perception Gaston is an observant and patient person. Who can track and read clues in the environment. So chances are he simply has little interest in books. Rather than being dumb.

On a related note. It's been suggested that he is a boorish brute. Likely because that is how the audience is supposed to perceived him and because Belle says so.

It's already been addressed that he is well loved in universe. By a town of fairly well to do somewhat educated folks.

As to how he would do in real life. With out going to into it. Because of site rules. I think it's safe to say. That a number of modern elections suggest that much of the population is drawn to candidates that the other half, would no doubt classify as boorish brutes or sexist bigots.

We see this in sales tactics too. Things like aggressive salespeople and upselling work well on some and are a complete turn off for others.

Then we have cults of personality around serial killers etc.

Not to mention musical artist/celebrities/influencers whose fanbase hang on there every word, but whose directors describe them as morons, punks, thugs etc.

Heck Gaston has a huge fanbase and there are all sorts of videos of people finding Gaston at Disney parks just how he can trash talk them.

I also think the towns folk are being under estimated too. 

They are actually fairly friendly and understanding. 

Belle spends here day ignoring or trash talking them and there response.

Is not something like "she reads and says mean things let's burn her as witch".

Rather there worst thing they say about her is that she is odd.

Same thing goes for her dad. The towns folk are by and large even tempered respectful people until Gaston steps in.

As for La. The only option purposed for her so far is bond with Elsa over being a queen and turn her to world domination? Something Elsa has shown no interest in.

It's also been suggested that her Royal station would be an in with Arrendale ruling class vs Gaston who is a country bumpkin.

However Gaston is a white male adventuring hero from a powerful respected nation, while La is woman of color from an unknown African kingdom. With monster aids. 

We know how Arrendale dealt with its own indigenous population.

Sadly I think Gaston's going to have an easier time making in roads than La. 

Now the short version.

Even if Gaston incites Elsa to violence, that's a step to the dark side. We shouldn't use our own moral judgement to determine whether Gaston's leadership and charisma draw people in, because it obviously does. The citizens of Arrendale are no more enlightened than the residents of Belle's town. As evidenced by there treatment of there northern brethren.

Because of those biases, her own drive for conquest, and no clear strategy. La is at a disadvantage.

Even if we count the one strategy for La that has been mentioned. It means she's got one angle to come at this from vs the multiple in character approaches Gaston could use.

 

 

 

 

 

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Gaston : 7
Queen La: 7