12:4 - Samurai vs. Goblins

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 4

Samurai

Slot: The Team's Cannon Fodder
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Samurai at this Wiki
Official Site: Public Domain

Goblins

Slot: The Team's Cannon Fodder
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Goblins at this Wiki
Official Site: Public Domain

Battle Terrain
Cannon Fodder Challenge: Capture the Flag

[Peypeypeypey]

My impression of Goblins is a somewhat unorganized mob that uses brutality and numbers to overwhelm opponents. Based on that, Samurai would seem to have the upper hand

[Culwych1]

I think the unorganised creatures who use brutality mainly applies to Orcs and Ogres and the like. Kobolds and Goblins are sneaky, resourceful and can coordinate well in their tribes or groups. They have shamans and fighters and even priests who can wield magic. 

They way I see this panning out is that the Samurai immediately engage in battle, which they would see as the honourable way of winning, to find themselves facing the archers, fighters and spells flung their way. Whilst they are preoccupied with that engagement, a team of goblin diggers have tunneled their way to the flag and won the day! 

[Peypeypeypey]

44 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

I think the unorganised creatures who use brutality mainly applies to Orcs and Ogres and the like. Kobolds and Goblins are sneaky, resourceful and can coordinate well in their tribes or groups. They have shamans and fighters and even priests who can wield magic. 

They way I see this panning out is that the Samurai immediately engage in battle, which they would see as the honourable way of winning, to find themselves facing the archers, fighters and spells flung their way. Whilst they are preoccupied with that engagement, a team of goblin diggers have tunneled their way to the flag and won the day! 

Going by D&D, Goblins are not especially smart, and are subservient to the much smarter Hobgoblins and the much stronger Bugbears. They're not completely dumb, but they're nowhere near as Kobolds, or as varied. I'm sure there are Goblins that can use magic, but that's more of a Hobgoblin thing, and Kobolds are far more likely to have casters/archers in their midst. Also, it's silly to think that the Samurai would just walk up to a Goblin and expect it to fight honorably. Samurai are very familiar with bows, and are themselves master archers. I would expect Samurai are better archers than Goblins, and would win a ranged battle if that's how they chose to play it. Again, it's ridiculous to think the Samurai are so one-track-minded that they will just stand there fighting the Goblins while their flag gets stolen.  

[Culwych1]

22 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Going by D&D, Goblins are not especially smart, and are subservient to the much smarter Hobgoblins and the much stronger Bugbears. They're not completely dumb, but they're nowhere near as Kobolds, or as varied. I'm sure there are Goblins that can use magic, but that's more of a Hobgoblin thing, and Kobolds are far more likely to have casters/archers in their midst. Also, it's silly to think that the Samurai would just walk up to a Goblin and expect it to fight honorably. Samurai are very familiar with bows, and are themselves master archers. I would expect Samurai are better archers than Goblins, and would win a ranged battle if that's how they chose to play it. Again, it's ridiculous to think the Samurai are so one-track-minded that they will just stand there fighting the Goblins while their flag gets stolen.  

Actually, Goblins in D&D now are a race that players can choose. Their main trait is their cunning, and even in the older editions if played properly could cause trouble to great heroes through their numbers, traps and sneaky ways. 

Essentially you have the most honourable fighters (and yes, they do have great archers) against one of the most cunning race of monsters. Agreed, it is not as simple to say the Samurai are so one-track-minded (although, it can definitely be argued that they will stick to their principles above all else such as shown at Shiroyama), but in terms of finding a sneaky way to win this.

[Peypeypeypey]

14 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Actually, Goblins in D&D now are a race that players can choose. Their main trait is their cunning, and even in the older editions if played properly could cause trouble to great heroes through their numbers, traps and sneaky ways. 

Essentially you have the most honourable fighters (and yes, they do have great archers) against one of the most cunning race of monsters. Agreed, it is not as simple to say the Samurai are so one-track-minded (although, it can definitely be argued that they will stick to their principles above all else such as shown at Shiroyama), but in terms of finding a sneaky way to win this.

Almost anything can be a playable character these days, but that doesn't mean that Goblins, as a whole, are intelligent. They are a problem for players through their numbers, their lairs, and their nimble escaping. However, since this fight doesn't take place in their lair, they lose one of their big advantages. I had to dig through my books a bit to find my 5e Monster Manual, but it's pretty clear about what Goblins are: "Goblins are lazy and undisciplined, making them poor servants, laborers, and guards." That last word is not great in this particular fight. Presumably, in this fight, they would have relatively even numbers, so they have lost two of their three biggest advantages: their lair and their numbers. They are marginally cunning, but they use that cunning to make alarms in their lair, not to strategize in a fight really. Again, that's a Hobgoblin and Kobold thing. I haven't played older editions of D&D, but I can say for sure Hobgoblins are the strategists of the group, Goblins are largely the followers. This is backed up both by the Monster Manual (which calls Goblins "lazy" and unmotivated, but has a section called "Strategic thinkers" for Hobgoblins), and mechanically (no vanilla Goblin in base 5e has any leadership abilities, but Hobgoblins have Leadership). Overall, I think you're way overselling Goblins. They aren't strategists, at least not in vanilla 5e, and they rely on numbers and fighting in home territory, both of which they completely lack here

[Culwych1]

5 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Almost anything can be a playable character these days, but that doesn't mean that Goblins, as a whole, are intelligent. They are a problem for players through their numbers, their lairs, and their nimble escaping. However, since this fight doesn't take place in their lair, they lose one of their big advantages. I had to dig through my books a bit to find my 5e Monster Manual, but it's pretty clear about what Goblins are: "Goblins are lazy and undisciplined, making them poor servants, laborers, and guards." That last word is not great in this particular fight. Presumably, in this fight, they would have relatively even numbers, so they have lost two of their three biggest advantages: their lair and their numbers. They are marginally cunning, but they use that cunning to make alarms in their lair, not to strategize in a fight really. Again, that's a Hobgoblin and Kobold thing. I haven't played older editions of D&D, but I can say for sure Hobgoblins are the strategists of the group, Goblins are largely the followers. This is backed up both by the Monster Manual (which calls Goblins "lazy" and unmotivated, but has a section called "Strategic thinkers" for Hobgoblins), and mechanically (no vanilla Goblin in base 5e has any leadership abilities, but Hobgoblins have Leadership). Overall, I think you're way overselling Goblins. They aren't strategists, at least not in vanilla 5e, and they rely on numbers and fighting in home territory, both of which they completely lack here

I think that we might be talking at cross-purposes here. 

You are referring to Goblins the entire typical race, which is like saying "humans" instead of "Samurai", whilst I am talking about the Goblins that are likely to be participating in this battle - which are the warriors and the rogues, and the magic weilding wizards, shamans or priests. Even basic builds can make use of things like hide or nimble escape. That in itself leans towards them having and advantage as the Samurai will not be bringing magic to the fight.

That, plust the fact that only 1 goblin has to be able to sneak by whilst the others engage the samurai in battle for this to count as a win. 

[Peypeypeypey]

9 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

I think that we might be talking at cross-purposes here. 

You are referring to Goblins the entire typical race, which is like saying "humans" instead of "Samurai", whilst I am talking about the Goblins that are likely to be participating in this battle - which are the warriors and the rogues, and the magic weilding wizards, shamans or priests. Even basic builds can make use of things like hide or nimble escape. That in itself leans towards them having and advantage as the Samurai will not be bringing magic to the fight.

That, plust the fact that only 1 goblin has to be able to sneak by whilst the others engage the samurai in battle for this to count as a win. 

I mean, yeah, I'm referred to the typical race, because that's what the character is in this slot. It's not Goblins from a particular franchise, nor is it "Goblin warriors" or "Goblin casters," so I'm going with my most-encountered form of Goblin, which is typical Goblins in D&D 5e, and in that setting, they get rolled by the samurai in this match

[Culwych1]

I've played D&D and rarely did I run into just plain sit around do nothing Goblins. Generally they would terrorise the party, ducking in and out of whatever cover there was and laying traps to cover their tracks. If there was an object to be stolen from the party or allies, then likely (undoubtedly to get the story rolling) then the goblins would have stolen it and we'd be playing catchup. 

Agreed, it doesn't say "Goblin warriors" etc., in the name, but the image does suggest a fighter and we can assume it isn't going to be farmers or something in this context (same as we'd assumed Orc fighters rather than an Orc farmer or barkeep from that pick).

[Peypeypeypey]

15 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

I've played D&D and rarely did I run into just plain sit around do nothing Goblins. Generally they would terrorise the party, ducking in and out of whatever cover there was and laying traps to cover their tracks. If there was an object to be stolen from the party or allies, then likely (undoubtedly to get the story rolling) then the goblins would have stolen it and we'd be playing catchup. 

Agreed, it doesn't say "Goblin warriors" etc., in the name, but the image does suggest a fighter and we can assume it isn't going to be farmers or something in this context (same as we'd assumed Orc fighters rather than an Orc farmer or barkeep from that pick).

You're just completely mischaracterizing my argument now. I never said they would sit around and do nothing, I said they lost all of their big advantages because of the scenario, and because of that they would lose. Again, I never said "Goblin farmers," I agree they're fighters, but the nature of the category is to use basic, average members of the group, and in this case, the Goblins are going to be vanilla 5e Goblins in my book. If 8 Goblins went up against 8 level 1 people in D&D, or even 8 Town Guards, they would get slaughtered. They survive only by their numbers and their use of the environment. They could still use the environment somewhat, but it would be a lot weaker than if they were in their lair. We can both agree your average Samurai is going to be stronger than your average, vanilla 5e Goblin, and probably smarter, too. Again, Hobgoblins are the brains of the operation, and Kobolds are the ones who set traps. Goblins set alarms in their lairs, but they have nothing in the Monster Manual for setting traps. That's Kobolds

[Culwych1]

26 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

You're just completely mischaracterizing my argument now. I never said they would sit around and do nothing, I said they lost all of their big advantages because of the scenario, and because of that they would lose. Again, I never said "Goblin farmers," I agree they're fighters, but the nature of the category is to use basic, average members of the group, and in this case, the Goblins are going to be vanilla 5e Goblins in my book. If 8 Goblins went up against 8 level 1 people in D&D, or even 8 Town Guards, they would get slaughtered. They survive only by their numbers and their use of the environment. They could still use the environment somewhat, but it would be a lot weaker than if they were in their lair. We can both agree your average Samurai is going to be stronger than your average, vanilla 5e Goblin, and probably smarter, too. Again, Hobgoblins are the brains of the operation, and Kobolds are the ones who set traps. Goblins set alarms in their lairs, but they have nothing in the Monster Manual for setting traps. That's Kobolds

I am not sure there is going to be agreement on this, especially as the whole point of D&D is the bespoke use of the races and monsters. I haven't played Neverwinter Nights, which is based on D&D, in a long time but if I remember the opening, goblins wipe out a training academy (appreciate with the help of some mages). What I do remember is the player character then having to fight against various Goblins - and yes, he took them out 1 or even 2 to 1. But that is a trained adventurer, with some knowledge of fighting or spells. Against level 1, or town guards, that isn't going to work and the sneaky sobs were wiping out people left and right. Again this is reaching well back, but I seem to remember the goblins even using or dropping magic wands! 

And that is in a typical average D&D adventure. 

Agree Kobolds are known for setting traps, and doing it well (side note, if you ever play older editions, then Dragon Mountain was the epitimy of Kobold trap setting - hopefully they'll do a conversion to 5e one day), but goblins can also lay traps as well as the aforementioned magic, rogue abilities etc. 

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Samurai: 8
Goblins: 2