12:4 - The Romulan Star Empire vs. Reapers

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 4

The Romulan Star Empire

Slot: The Team's Planetary Invasion Force
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about The Romulan Star Empire at this Wiki
Official Site: Paramount

Reapers

Slot: The Team's Planetary Invasion Force
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Reapers at this Wiki
Official Site: BioWare

Battle Terrain
Alien Invasion: Battleground planet Earth

[Peypeypeypey]

The Reaper's have a hell of an invasion force, and in my estimation would dominate any ground-based combat, but the Reapers themselves would be decimated by the Romulans. The Reaper invasion forces can entrench themselves very well on a planet, and the Romulans would have a hell of a time forcing them out, but the Reapers would essentially lose every battle in space. If this were a fleet fight, the Reapers would lose easily, but in simultaneous invasion, I think the Reapers have a good shot

[Mercenaryblade]

Reapers are screwed here. The Romulans tech makes Mass Effect look like 1910's tech. The Romulans will destroy the reapers in space, their weapons wouldn't even get through the navigational shields. As to reapers entrenching themselves on Earth it's a simple matter after the Romulans have established space superiority of finding them via ships sensors and carrying out some surgical strikes. It's ridiculous how accurate Star Trek sensors can be. 

As a bonus the Romulans in all their space Roman glory will be seen as liberators by the people of Earth.  

[Twogunkid]

I'm not going to throw the Reapers out of the space combat. Reapers may lose energy weapons, but slamming into ships physically is something reapers do. Throw in the huskification of Earth inhabitants and Romulan soldiers and the Reapers have this.

[RiotGear]

I'm not sure Reaper shields are going to stop Romulan weapons. Well Romulan energy weapons anyway.

Nor do they have anything to keep Romulans from beaming explosives/troops aboard there ships.

Romulans should also have the edge in maneuverability and the benefits provided by cloaking technology.

[Twogunkid]

Even if we say Reaper shields don't stop beaming, and I see no reason they shouldn't,  Romulans would be extremely unlikely to beam into an area without life support, and filled with the unknown element of Ezo.

 

This brings me to the next point, there are no Romulan biotics. When a banshee shows up on an Oculus drone leading a boarding party, it is bad news for the Romulans. The Romulans stand no chance in boarding actions or ground combat. Hordes of husks, banshees, adjutants, brutes, geth, harvesters, marauders, praetorian, ravagers, swarmers, and scions and things look bad. Assume that they are limited to Human and whatever Romulan husks they can make and they still create more ground troops who have personal shields and body armor (which everyone except the Breen and Klingons seems to have abandoned in Trek.). The Romulans loose a ground war, superior physiology to humans be damned.

 

I'm also not sold that the Romulans outgun the Reapers in space.

 

A Romulan Warbird is 1282 meters long. Based on a throwaway line that a warbird was twice the size of a galaxy class and a galaxy being 641 meters long. (I would note that the media seems to show them as close to the same size and as the Dominion war raged on, even on the smaller side) The Soveriegn Class Reapers are 2 kilometers long. Each one of these shrugs off fleets of ships including ramming actions at near relativistic speeds. The Romulans of the TNG era have eschewed the heaviest of the Star Trek heavy weapons for the lightest in the form of the disruptors. As some one who played a lot of star fleet battles, the disruptor and the cloaking device do not synergize the way their TOS Plasma torpedoes and the cloaking device do. Using superior Cardassian disruptor figures I found give the Disruptors output as 700MW.

Fair warning my expertise is literature not math.

Based on ME2 Codex entries (which admit they are unsure how powerful the beam was because no ship survived it) they had estimates of the beam's power. Alliance estimates put it at between 150-452 KILOTONS of TNT. Converted this comes to 174333.33-525324.44  Megawatt hours.

 

Other weapons are harder to classify. Codex entries don't give me concrete numbers to work with but everything they have is nasty and that is before the ships themselves close to melee range.

They have super sustained beams of metal thrown at relativistic speeds which devastate fleets, cities, armies, basically anything that isn't Commander Shepard which should slice through warbirds, because to  fire they need to decloak and then they are doomed. They have armies that replenish themselves on their enemies. They have ship systems that can react far quicker than any Romulan with a computer interface. The Reapers have this in space and on land.

[Pizzaguy2995]

The Reapers have purged the Milky Way of all sentient life countless times ever since their creation over a billion years ago. The Romulans are good, but their not even the strongest force in their own universe.

[RiotGear]

On 11/16/2021 at 6:58 PM, Twogunkid said:

Even if we say Reaper shields don't stop beaming, and I see no reason they shouldn't,  Romulans would be extremely unlikely to beam into an area without life support, and filled with the unknown element of Ezo.

 

This brings me to the next point, there are no Romulan biotics. When a banshee shows up on an Oculus drone leading a boarding party, it is bad news for the Romulans. The Romulans stand no chance in boarding actions or ground combat. Hordes of husks, banshees, adjutants, brutes, geth, harvesters, marauders, praetorian, ravagers, swarmers, and scions and things look bad. Assume that they are limited to Human and whatever Romulan husks they can make and they still create more ground troops who have personal shields and body armor (which everyone except the Breen and Klingons seems to have abandoned in Trek.). The Romulans loose a ground war, superior physiology to humans be damned.

 

I'm also not sold that the Romulans outgun the Reapers in space.

 

A rRmulan Warbird is 1282 meters long. Based on a throwaway line that a warbird was twice the size of a galaxy class and a galaxy being 641 meters long. (I would note that the media seems to show them as close to the same size and as the Dominion war raged on, even on the smaller side) The Soveriegn Class Reapers are 2 kilometers long. Each one of these shrugs of fleets of ships including ramming actions at near relativistic speeds. The Romulans of the TNG era have eschewed the heaviest of the Star Trek heavy weapons for the lightest in the form of the disruptors. As some one who played a lot of star fleet battles, the disruptor and the cloaking device do not synergize the way their TOS Plasma torpedoes and the cloaking device do. Using superior Cardassian disruptor figures I found give the Disruptors output as 700MW.

Fair warning my expertise is literature not math.

Based on ME2 Codex entries (which admit they are unsure how powerful the beam was because no ship survived it) they had estimates of the beam's power. Alliance estimates put it at between 150-452 KILOTONS of TNT. Converted this comes to 174333.33-525324.44  Megawatt hours.

 

Other weapons are harder to classify. Codex entries don't give me concrete numbers to work with but everything they have is nasty and that is before the ships themselves close to melee range.

They have super sustained beams of metal thrown at relativistic speeds which devastate fleets, cities, armies, basically anything that isn't Commander Shepard which should slice through warbirds, because to  fire they need to decloak and then they are doomed. They have armies that replenish themselves on their enemies. They have ship systems that can react far quicker than any Romulan with a computer interface. The Reapers have this in space and on land.

Shields in Mass Effect are kinetic barriers. The work by pushing back against the mass of incoming projectiles.

Transporter tech works by converting matter to energy. Energy has no mass so what ever is being beamed in should have no issues getting by kinetic barriers.

Similarly disrupters are directed energy weapons so should also by pass Mass Effect shields.

Space and environmental suits exist in Star Trek so a lack of atmosphere shouldn't be an issue.

Romulans have what they view as disposable troops in the form of Remans. So aren't going to be to concerned with the hostile environment or ezo.

Why would Romulan troops stand no chance? Do you believe a disrupter would not hurt the Reaper forces in question?

It's not as if the Romulan's haven't faced off against opponents with heavy weapons, vehicles, or special powers before.

Star Fleet and the Klingons make use of grenades, mortars, artillery, shoulder launchers etc. The Breen have have anti-vehicle hand cannons.

Star Fleet, Cardassians, and Klingons all make use of ground vehicles. The Romulan's themselves have atmospheric capable fighter craft.

Jem'Hadar turn invisible, Klingons/Vulcan/Jem'Hadar are super strong/tough, Vulcans/Betazoids/Vorta etc have tk/tp powers. The are a cybernetic hive mind with built in weapons and shields.

In other words this is not the first time Romulan's have faced off against heavy weapons, vehicles, or superpowers.

Personal shields and body armor is not unheard of in Star Trek we've seen it used to varying degrees by most the major players and some of the episode governments as well.

We see Reman troops with body armor in Enterprise and Nemesis, with see Romulan helmets in The Original Series, and we see armored Romulan assassin's in Picard.

Romulans never stopped using plasma torpedoes. We know they tried to stock pile them at a "hospital" on a Bajoran moon during the Dominion war and we see Romulan ships firing torpedoes in DS9 and Nemesis.

I'm not sure why you think Cardassian disrupters are superior, but the 200 year old Phase Cannons on the Enterprise NX-01 could obliterate a Denali ( Mt. McKinley ) sized mountain.

Romulans ships of the era were more powerful then Enterprise and again that was 200 years ago in universe imagine how much more powerful there weapons are now.

I don't believe we have seen Reaper ships maneuver they way Romulan ships can and most Reaper weapons especially the heavy ones can only fire in a limited arc. Romulan weapon arcs are not as limited.

So it is going to be way easier for Romulan ships to both avoid getting hit and hit there targets.

Yes you have to de-cloak to fire, but they can position themselves in weapon blind spots before they do.

In other words Romulan's hold the edge in firepower and maneuverability.

On top of trick like beaming in explosives and troops.

 

[Twogunkid]

6 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Shields in Mass Effect are kinetic barriers. The work by pushing back against the mass of incoming projectiles.

Transporter tech works by converting matter to energy. Energy has no mass so what ever is being beamed in should have no issues getting by kinetic barriers.

Similarly disrupters are directed energy weapons so should also by pass Mass Effect shields.

Courtesy of Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise shields are "generated by the subatomic scan and replication of an alloy known as diburnium-osmium, and then projected as a force field beyond a ship's hull along the shield grid." This seems to be the same principle as Mass Effect Shields, so they should stop beaming and be effective against Romulan weapons.

Quote

Space and environmental suits exist in Star Trek so a lack of atmosphere shouldn't be an issue.

Romulans have what they view as disposable troops in the form of Remans. So aren't going to be to concerned with the hostile environment or ezo.

Why would Romulan troops stand no chance? Do you believe a disrupter would not hurt the Reaper forces in question?

Enviornment suits are not present in the numbers in Trek ships that would be required for a mass boarding action. Remans and Groundtroops are going to end up as husks. So yeah, they may kill Reaper troops, but they also replenish the troops. That and since ME and ST shields work on similar principles, the ground troops of the Reapers are a cut above their Romulan counterparts.

Throw in that even derelict Reapers have an indoctrination effect with the natural paranoid tendencies of the Romulans and the Reapers have a fantastic backup plan while the Romulans desperately try to dislodge any Reapers from the planet.

Quote

It's not as if the Romulan's haven't faced off against opponents with heavy weapons, vehicles, or special powers before.

Star Fleet and the Klingons make use of grenades, mortars, artillery, shoulder launchers etc. The Breen have have anti-vehicle hand cannons.

Star Fleet, Cardassians, and Klingons all make use of ground vehicles. The Romulan's themselves have atmospheric capable fighter craft.

And in the Dominion war, the Romulan fleet took horrific casualties even compared to the Federation and Klingons. I also have never seen a Romulan fighter craft (although I have not seen Picard, Discovery, or Lower Decks, so judgement is reserved), but based off of extensive play of Star Fleet Battles and repeated viewings of all of DS9, fighter craft are uncommon in the Trek universe. Federation fighters were few and far between in the Dominion War, the Jem'Hadar "Fighter" was more akin to a Destroyer or Light Cruiser, and no other race had fighters present.

Quote

Personal shields and body armor is not unheard of in Star Trek we've seen it used to varying degrees by most the major players and some of the episode governments as well.

We see Reman troops with body armor in Enterprise and Nemesis, with see Romulan helmets in The Original Series, and we see armored Romulan assassin's in Picard.

For the Borg which the Romulans never faced in any canon I am aware of. I can think of no other race which has deployed personal shields. The Body Armor of the Romulans in TOS is the equivalent of ren fair cosplay and didn't protect troops from being KO'd by a Kirk punch let alone mutated super beasts and soldiers that the Reapers are deploying. As TNG and DS9 show us though, the majority of Romulans, even in combat situations are not equipped with armor and more than a hand disruptor. Even when the Tal'Shiar and the Obsidian Order launch a surprise attack on the Founders, armor is not present.

Quote

Romulans never stopped using plasma torpedoes. We know they tried to stock pile them at a "hospital" on a Bajoran moon during the Dominion war and we see Romulan ships firing torpedoes in DS9 and Nemesis.

I'm not sure why you think Cardassian disrupters are superior, but the 200 year old Phase Cannons on the Enterprise NX-01 could obliterate a Denali ( Mt. McKinley ) sized mountain.

Courtesy of the best Next Gen O'Brien Episode the Wounded we have the energy output of the high power disruptors on a Galor Class Cruiser. As to my claim as to the superiority of Cardassian Disruptors, the Cardassian Spiral Wave Disruptors work on different principals than the other Star Trek Disruptors, but the Cardassian Klingon Alliance of the Mirror Universe exclusively used Cardassian designs. The disruptor technology the Romulans have used is based of Klingon technology sold to them along with warp drive back in the TOS era. The Romulans experimented with other disruptor designs including a radiation but continued to buy Klingon surplus. Further if we have the output of the Cardassian ship mounted disruptor. Even if we assume the Galor class is 1/4 the power of a warbird's disruptor it still pales in co comparison to the reaper's big gun attack. I'm not impressed compared to the Soveriegn mass driver attacks.

Quote

I don't believe we have seen Reaper ships maneuver they way Romulan ships can and most Reaper weapons especially the heavy ones can only fire in a limited arc. Romulan weapon arcs are not as limited.

 

Courtesy of the ME Codex, the Reapers are capable of traveling 30 light years in 24 hours. Courtesy of Voyager (S2E7), we know that 10 light years at Warp 9 is 51 hours. Meaning that at Warp 9 the Reaper is still a mind boggling 6.3 times faster. Also courtesy of Voyager (S6E26) we know Warp 9.99 could cover 2 light years in 2 hours, meaning they can get to 80% the Reaper's FTL speed pushing their systems far beyond the bounds of what they are meant for. Throw in EZO and a Reaper's ability to reduce its mass and it is insanely mobile for a vessel that large. Space combat in the Mass Effect universe relies on using EZO to turn off physics. The Reaper intelligence will certainly cover for their weaknesses in a fleet sense as they have been purging lesser species since time immemorial with destroyers and Occulusses serving the role destroyers and corvettes do in real world navies.

 

I know this hurts you, but the Romulan Star Empire is just another pitiful organic race to be harvested.

[RiotGear]

2 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Courtesy of Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise shields are "generated by the subatomic scan and replication of an alloy known as diburnium-osmium, and then projected as a force field beyond a ship's hull along the shield grid." This seems to be the same principle as Mass Effect Shields, so they should stop beaming and be effective against Romulan weapons.

Enviornment suits are not present in the numbers in Trek ships that would be required for a mass boarding action. Remans and Groundtroops are going to end up as husks. So yeah, they may kill Reaper troops, but they also replenish the troops. That and since ME and ST shields work on similar principles, the ground troops of the Reapers are a cut above their Romulan counterparts.

Throw in that even derelict Reapers have an indoctrination effect with the natural paranoid tendencies of the Romulans and the Reapers have a fantastic backup plan while the Romulans desperately try to dislodge any Reapers from the planet.

And in the Dominion war, the Romulan fleet took horrific casualties even compared to the Federation and Klingons. I also have never seen a Romulan fighter craft (although I have not seen Picard, Discovery, or Lower Decks, so judgement is reserved), but based off of extensive play of Star Fleet Battles and repeated viewings of all of DS9, fighter craft are uncommon in the Trek universe. Federation fighters were few and far between in the Dominion War, the Jem'Hadar "Fighter" was more akin to a Destroyer or Light Cruiser, and no other race had fighters present.

For the Borg which the Romulans never faced in any canon I am aware of. I can think of no other race which has deployed personal shields. The Body Armor of the Romulans in TOS is the equivalent of ren fair cosplay and didn't protect troops from being KO'd by a Kirk punch let alone mutated super beasts and soldiers that the Reapers are deploying. As TNG and DS9 show us though, the majority of Romulans, even in combat situations are not equipped with armor and more than a hand disruptor. Even when the Tal'Shiar and the Obsidian Order launch a surprise attack on the Founders, armor is not present.

Courtesy of the best Next Gen O'Brien Episode the Wounded we have the energy output of the high power disruptors on a Galor Class Cruiser. As to my claim as to the superiority of Cardassian Disruptors, the Cardassian Spiral Wave Disruptors work on different principals than the other Star Trek Disruptors, but the Cardassian Klingon Alliance of the Mirror Universe exclusively used Cardassian designs. The disruptor technology the Romulans have used is based of Klingon technology sold to them along with warp drive back in the TOS era. The Romulans experimented with other disruptor designs including a radiation but continued to buy Klingon surplus. Further if we have the output of the Cardassian ship mounted disruptor. Even if we assume the Galor class is 1/4 the power of a warbird's disruptor it still pales in co comparison to the reaper's big gun attack. I'm not impressed compared to the Soveriegn mass driver attacks.

 

Courtesy of the ME Codex, the Reapers are capable of traveling 30 light years in 24 hours. Courtesy of Voyager (S2E7), we know that 10 light years at Warp 9 is 51 hours. Meaning that at Warp 9 the Reaper is still a mind boggling 6.3 times faster. Also courtesy of Voyager (S6E26) we know Warp 9.99 could cover 2 light years in 2 hours, meaning they can get to 80% the Reaper's FTL speed pushing their systems far beyond the bounds of what they are meant for. Throw in EZO and a Reaper's ability to reduce its mass and it is insanely mobile for a vessel that large. Space combat in the Mass Effect universe relies on using EZO to turn off physics. The Reaper intelligence will certainly cover for their weaknesses in a fleet sense as they have been purging lesser species since time immemorial with destroyers and Occulusses serving the role destroyers and corvettes do in real world navies.

 

I know this hurts you, but the Romulan Star Empire is just another pitiful organic race to be harvested.

Thing is we know Star Trek shields stop directed energy weapons. So they are not responding to the mass of an object the way Mass Effect kinetic barriers do.

Also Scott's guide to the Enterprise is not Canon. If we wanna use licensed work then I can pull out all sorts of things.

That said that description sounds more like beaming a transparent wall into space then tiny projectors responding to incoming mass and pushing it away.

Mass Effect barriers actual seem more like Trek navigational deflectors or reverse tractor beams.

Any limitations in stock of EVA suits is easily remedied by replicators. 

Some of the effects of indoctrination will be slowed by environmental suits, on top of that Romulan's have spent years harding there mind against interrogation etc. So turning them is going to take a while. Also Reman telepathic powers should stunt indoctrination as well.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Scorpion_class

Romulan fighter craft useable in atmosphere and small and maneuverable enough to fly inside a warbird. 

We see borgified Romulan's, so it happened at some point.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Personal_force_field

Note that Earth had enough on hand to equip soldiers on every corner. 

https://usm.propstoreauction.com/m/lot-details/index/catalog/287/lot/74085/?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F287%2F%3Fpage%3D1%26view%3Dgrid%26items%3D48%26key%3Dtrek%26sale%3Dundefined%26catm%3Dany%26order%3Dhighest%26xclosed%3Dno%26featured%3Dno

Here is the Reman uniform you can see a combination of more solid like metallic elements on the chest and shoulders as well as softer/padded protective elements on the arms and legs.

https://www.google.com/search?q=romulan+helmet&oq=romulan+helmet&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30.5759j1j4&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgdii=EiwPvywzwcrxaM&imgrc=hHrK0cu84y5nOM

Here is the Romulan helmet from Picard.

https://www.google.com/search?q=romulan+helmet&oq=romulan+helmet&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30.5759j1j4&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=KQj4bF7abbzjAM

And the ones from TOS. I do like the goal post shift from you saying essentially "Romulan's don't have armor", to "well yeah they have armor, but like it suck."

Let's go ahead at look at some of there peer opponents to though.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Klingon_Defense_Force_uniform

Klingon uniforms. I see a fair amount of armor there. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inverse.com/article/33755-star-trek-discovery-armor-starfleet-phasers-canon-tos-burnham/amp

Looks like the Federation has body armor too.

They also seem to have some padded less rigid forms of protective wear as well. 

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Burke_(Chief)

Like Burke's uniform seen here. 

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Shield

We see here that Starfleet also makes use of physical riot shields.

None of that mean Cardassian disrupters were more powerful. Rather that for what ever reason from economics to logistics. Cardassian disrupters were preferred. For that region.

look at the posted clip. That is a vessel, that was underpowered by Romulan standards 200 years ago destroying a Mountain the size of Denali.

the Star Trek TNg Tech Manuel suggests a photon torpedo output of 64 megatons.

and based on some other sources that's a low estimate.

I was speaking more to tactical manoeuvering, not the strategic ability to manoeuver naval assets to theater.

Still we have other quote's from Voyager that translate to them moving one light year an hour and faster ones from all across the Canon.

Have we every sewn Reaper ships manoeuver in combat the way we see Trek ships do in the DS9 fleet battle scenes?

Long story short. Romulans may be able to bypass Reaper shield entirely and even if we handwaved that away, they have more than enough firepower to blast them from the sky.

Even on the ground Reapers aren't really bringing anything the Romulan haven't seen before and the Romulan's have the massive advantage of being able to move troops via beaming.

[Twogunkid]

4 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Thing is we know Star Trek shields stop directed energy weapons. So they are not responding to the mass of an object the way Mass Effect kinetic barriers do.

Also Scott's guide to the Enterprise is not Canon. If we wanna use licensed work then I can pull out all sorts of things.

That said that description sounds more like beaming a transparent wall into space then tiny projectors responding to incoming mass and pushing it away.

Mass Effect barriers actual seem more like Trek navigational deflectors or reverse tractor beams.

Any limitations in stock of EVA suits is easily remedied by replicators. 

Some of the effects of indoctrination will be slowed by environmental suits, on top of that Romulan's have spent years harding there mind against interrogation etc. So turning them is going to take a while. Also Reman telepathic powers should stunt indoctrination as well.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Scorpion_class

Romulan fighter craft useable in atmosphere and small and maneuverable enough to fly inside a warbird. 

We see borgified Romulan's, so it happened at some point.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Personal_force_field

Note that Earth had enough on hand to equip soldiers on every corner. 

https://usm.propstoreauction.com/m/lot-details/index/catalog/287/lot/74085/?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F287%2F%3Fpage%3D1%26view%3Dgrid%26items%3D48%26key%3Dtrek%26sale%3Dundefined%26catm%3Dany%26order%3Dhighest%26xclosed%3Dno%26featured%3Dno

Here is the Reman uniform you can see a combination of more solid like metallic elements on the chest and shoulders as well as softer/padded protective elements on the arms and legs.

https://www.google.com/search?q=romulan+helmet&oq=romulan+helmet&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30.5759j1j4&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgdii=EiwPvywzwcrxaM&imgrc=hHrK0cu84y5nOM

Here is the Romulan helmet from Picard.

https://www.google.com/search?q=romulan+helmet&oq=romulan+helmet&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30.5759j1j4&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=KQj4bF7abbzjAM

And the ones from TOS. I do like the goal post shift from you saying essentially "Romulan's don't have armor", to "well yeah they have armor, but like it suck."

Let's go ahead at look at some of there peer opponents to though.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Klingon_Defense_Force_uniform

Klingon uniforms. I see a fair amount of armor there. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inverse.com/article/33755-star-trek-discovery-armor-starfleet-phasers-canon-tos-burnham/amp

Looks like the Federation has body armor too.

They also seem to have some padded less rigid forms of protective wear as well. 

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Burke_(Chief)

Like Burke's uniform seen here. 

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Shield

We see here that Starfleet also makes use of physical riot shields.

None of that mean Cardassian disrupters were more powerful. Rather that for what ever reason from economics to logistics. Cardassian disrupters were preferred. For that region.

look at the posted clip. That is a vessel, that was underpowered by Romulan standards 200 years ago destroying a Mountain the size of Denali.

the Star Trek TNg Tech Manuel suggests a photon torpedo output of 64 megatons.

and based on some other sources that's a low estimate.

I was speaking more to tactical manoeuvering, not the strategic ability to manoeuver naval assets to theater.

Still we have other quote's from Voyager that translate to them moving one light year an hour and faster ones from all across the Canon.

Have we every sewn Reaper ships manoeuver in combat the way we see Trek ships do in the DS9 fleet battle scenes?

Long story short. Romulans may be able to bypass Reaper shield entirely and even if we handwaved that away, they have more than enough firepower to blast them from the sky.

Even on the ground Reapers aren't really bringing anything the Romulan haven't seen before and the Romulan's have the massive advantage of being able to move troops via beaming.

OK, based on memory Alpha shields send out layers of gravitons to protect the ship which means we are still sending mass out there, so guess what ME shields should still work. And Reaper Shields hold up to fire from multiple dreadnoughts at pointblank range.

Replicators take time to build up a supply as evidenced by the Federation smuggling heavy duty replicators into the Cardassian union to support rebels in the Dominion War. Factories haven't dissapearred from the Trek universe for this reason. Complex structures also are beyond Replicators according to Dr. Crusher and EVA battlesuit may well be beyond Romulan Capacity.

As to the Scorpion class, are you referring to the Reman rebel built prototype on board the Scimitar? That was an attempt to overthrow the Empire not a resource of the Empire's, so I really fail to see the Scorpion's relevance. That would be like claiming the CSS Hunley was the first US submarine. It belonged to a rebel group, not the actual government.

I read your memory alpha article on personal shields. The Admiral in question, was currently planning a coup, when he said that. To that end at no point in Federation ground combat is a shield seen. Not during the entire Dominion War is it seen. Further, none of your examples supported the Romulans having this technology. As courtesy of Next Gen and Voyager, the Borg having personal shields was surprising.  Further, Star Trek personal shields were shown to be ineffective against physical weapons as evidenced by Jean-Luc gunning down Borg with a tommy gun on the holodeck. Meaning that the Trek shields are the ones that are ineffectual in ground combat. Maybe they are effective against biotic attacks which the Romulans also lack a counter to otherwise.

Sorry I didn't realize that you were going to use TOS Chainmail and Leathers and Klingon scale mail as proof of armor in our Sci-Fi battle. Presenting it as armor is silly when the tech level is anything beyond the Renaissance. Useful in the context of the police and nonlethal combat (the Federation examples), a society obsesses with an antiquated form of combat (the Klingon examples), or just plain silly the Romulan ones. As for shields in terms of Riot shields, just... you know damn well that wasn't the shields discussion and the fact that I am even addressing it is nonsensical. Again, your example, even if it was relevant is a Federation not a Romulan one.

I may grant the Reman ones as an example except during the flashbacks in Nemesis all the miners are wearing that outfit as well, so it seems more likely that it is a mining uniform than a battle armor. I don't quite see the armor you are claiming Burke has. The article mentions a Flak Jacket but I don't see it, and late 20th century invention has still little relevance.

Transporters landing troops inside the Reaper are met with hordes of troops. Every Reaper seems to be loaded with internal defense systems and fodder to protect itself with.

You've made the claim about maneuverability, but we see no proof of that. We see Reaper ships weave through crowded fleet battles to land or engage their targets in melee. Plus the big gun you claim to be avoiding on many Reapers is mounted as a central eye giving it an excellent field of fire. We see a lot of broad arcs and sitting still in space in Romulan fleet battles. If you want licensed materials, star fleet battles gives Romulan ships of all eras horrific turn radiuses.

Plus with the paranoid nature of the Romulans, a handful of Reapers breaking off for Romulas faster than their fleet can follow would be cause for panic and withdraw while the remaining Reapers mop up the Earth and then the Romulan star empire bit by bit.

Finally, a point I haven't brought up yet is that the Reapers are masters of electronic warfare. They are able to override entire species of robotic organisms easily. The Romulans are going to be engaged in a massive anti-hacking campaign the whole time to prevent their systems from being overridden..

[RiotGear]

22 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

OK, based on memory Alpha shields send out layers of gravitons to protect the ship which means we are still sending mass out there, so guess what ME shields should still work. And Reaper Shields hold up to fire from multiple dreadnoughts at pointblank range.

Replicators take time to build up a supply as evidenced by the Federation smuggling heavy duty replicators into the Cardassian union to support rebels in the Dominion War. Factories haven't dissapearred from the Trek universe for this reason. Complex structures also are beyond Replicators according to Dr. Crusher and EVA battlesuit may well be beyond Romulan Capacity.

As to the Scorpion class, are you referring to the Reman rebel built prototype on board the Scimitar? That was an attempt to overthrow the Empire not a resource of the Empire's, so I really fail to see the Scorpion's relevance. That would be like claiming the CSS Hunley was the first US submarine. It belonged to a rebel group, not the actual government.

I read your memory alpha article on personal shields. The Admiral in question, was currently planning a coup, when he said that. To that end at no point in Federation ground combat is a shield seen. Not during the entire Dominion War is it seen. Further, none of your examples supported the Romulans having this technology. As courtesy of Next Gen and Voyager, the Borg having personal shields was surprising.  Further, Star Trek personal shields were shown to be ineffective against physical weapons as evidenced by Jean-Luc gunning down Borg with a tommy gun on the holodeck. Meaning that the Trek shields are the ones that are ineffectual in ground combat. Maybe they are effective against biotic attacks which the Romulans also lack a counter to otherwise.

Sorry I didn't realize that you were going to use TOS Chainmail and Leathers and Klingon scale mail as proof of armor in our Sci-Fi battle. Presenting it as armor is silly when the tech level is anything beyond the Renaissance. Useful in the context of the police and nonlethal combat (the Federation examples), a society obsesses with an antiquated form of combat (the Klingon examples), or just plain silly the Romulan ones. As for shields in terms of Riot shields, just... you know damn well that wasn't the shields discussion and the fact that I am even addressing it is nonsensical. Again, your example, even if it was relevant is a Federation not a Romulan one.

I may grant the Reman ones as an example except during the flashbacks in Nemesis all the miners are wearing that outfit as well, so it seems more likely that it is a mining uniform than a battle armor. I don't quite see the armor you are claiming Burke has. The article mentions a Flak Jacket but I don't see it, and late 20th century invention has still little relevance.

Transporters landing troops inside the Reaper are met with hordes of troops. Every Reaper seems to be loaded with internal defense systems and fodder to protect itself with.

You've made the claim about maneuverability, but we see no proof of that. We see Reaper ships weave through crowded fleet battles to land or engage their targets in melee. Plus the big gun you claim to be avoiding on many Reapers is mounted as a central eye giving it an excellent field of fire. We see a lot of broad arcs and sitting still in space in Romulan fleet battles. If you want licensed materials, star fleet battles gives Romulan ships of all eras horrific turn radiuses.

Plus with the paranoid nature of the Romulans, a handful of Reapers breaking off for Romulas faster than their fleet can follow would be cause for panic and withdraw while the remaining Reapers mop up the Earth and then the Romulan star empire bit by bit.

Finally, a point I haven't brought up yet is that the Reapers are masters of electronic warfare. They are able to override entire species of robotic organisms easily. The Romulans are going to be engaged in a massive anti-hacking campaign the whole time to prevent their systems from being overridden..

I think you are misunderstanding something.

Mass Effect shields are specifically stated to to be kinetics energy barriers that interact with the mass of incoming objects.

Directed energy weapons, like disrupters ( and transporter beams lack ) lack mass. 

So they will not be effected by kinetic barriers.

Trek shields on the other hand do have an effect on both both energy and projectile weapons. We know this because we've seen it.

We see replicators create clothes all the time.

We don't know how much of Schinzons designs were his and how much was existing equipment.

We do know that post Nemesis. The Romulan's would have access to it all.

The admiral discussing personal shields may have been planning a coup, but he was activating a plan for the defense of Earth that the Federation/Starfleet had planned and equiped for.

Borg shields were not effective against bullets, but in a "Fistful of Data's" Worf built a personal shield that blocked bullets, a shield mind you that he cobbled together out of a communicator and a 19th century telegraph.

My guess would be that the shield built by the Starfleet security officer would be closer in style to Federation personal force fields, than those used by the Borg.

Advanced material science means they can look like ren fair rejects and still be armored.

There are forms of chain mail and weave still used in modern armors, but you just keep shifting that goal post.

It possible the Remans wear it as protection from dangers in the mines and on the battle field.

If you look at the disrupter burn on Burke's jacket you can see the jacket is rather thick with multiple layers of material, similar to what you'd see in some modern soft armours.

Flak jackets are still armor and Trek material science is still centuries ahead of modern Earth.

The Mass Effect battles I've seen the Reapers sit there and soak damage, not zip around or manoeuver about.

Even if the main gun is in the eye, they still have to line up the eye with the enemy.

Disrupter arcs can swing around and plasma torpedoes can chase ships at warp.

Romulans/Remans are battle hardened troops trained against interrogation, with telepathic powers. Turning them on each other is not going to be as easy as your making it out to be.

Romulan computers are very advanced. They should be fine in a hacking war for as long as this fire fight lasts.

 

[Twogunkid]

On 11/19/2021 at 7:15 AM, RiotGear said:

I think you are misunderstanding something.

Mass Effect shields are specifically stated to to be kinetics energy barriers that interact with the mass of incoming objects.

Directed energy weapons, like disrupters ( and transporter beams lack ) lack mass. 

So they will not be effected by kinetic barriers.

Trek shields on the other hand do have an effect on both both energy and projectile weapons. We know this because we've seen it.

We see replicators create clothes all the time.

We don't know how much of Schinzons designs were his and how much was existing equipment.

We do know that post Nemesis. The Romulan's would have access to it all.

The admiral discussing personal shields may have been planning a coup, but he was activating a plan for the defense of Earth that the Federation/Starfleet had planned and equiped for.

Borg shields were not effective against bullets, but in a "Fistful of Data's" Worf built a personal shield that blocked bullets, a shield mind you that he cobbled together out of a communicator and a 19th century telegraph.

My guess would be that the shield built by the Starfleet security officer would be closer in style to Federation personal force fields, than those used by the Borg.

Advanced material science means they can look like ren fair rejects and still be armored.

There are forms of chain mail and weave still used in modern armors, but you just keep shifting that goal post.

It possible the Remans wear it as protection from dangers in the mines and on the battle field.

If you look at the disrupter burn on Burke's jacket you can see the jacket is rather thick with multiple layers of material, similar to what you'd see in some modern soft armours.

Flak jackets are still armor and Trek material science is still centuries ahead of modern Earth.

The Mass Effect battles I've seen the Reapers sit there and soak damage, not zip around or manoeuver about.

Even if the main gun is in the eye, they still have to line up the eye with the enemy.

Disrupter arcs can swing around and plasma torpedoes can chase ships at warp.

Romulans/Remans are battle hardened troops trained against interrogation, with telepathic powers. Turning them on each other is not going to be as easy as your making it out to be.

Romulan computers are very advanced. They should be fine in a hacking war for as long as this fire fight lasts.

 

It entirely depends on the type of disruptors the romulans use. Handheld disruptors are generally sonic, but Romulan radiation disruptors and  plasma torpedoes and photon torpedoes (which doesn't make sense based on the name) all have mass.

We do actually know that Schinzon and the Remans built the Scimitar in secret as part of their plot. It is even introduced as the Reman warbird. The Romulans do not get the tech off of it because it is destroyed at the end of Nemesis.

I should have thought of advanced materials in my Trek loving life. All this time I thought the Klingons were total morons. I guess I will grant that effective combat armors exist, but we also see that advanced materials like dilithium and neutronium and latinum cannot be replicated. So either the materials science is advanced future metals and ren faire armor is worthwhile and should be acknowledged, or it can be easily replicated for the Romulans to supply their troops. Because the average Romulan military uniform appears to be cloth with really big shoulders.

To manuveribility, I still am not sold on your argument there, but the Reaper body is flexible to enable the eye to have a massive field of fire (Further evidenced by it firing perpindicular in several shots seen here).Here we see a reaper execute an over 90 degree turn without strain and land upon a Turrian vessel

Plasma torpedoes chasing the Reapers at warp is not a problem as the Reapers are greatly faster than Romulan ships at Warp 9.

Reaper computers are overriding whole robotic civilizations. I think the Romulans do need to be worried on the electronic warfare.

 

Finally, the Reapers had sufficient forces to occupy the milky way with multiple dreadnoughts just about everywhere. The Reaper forces aren't even defeated in combat by the combined might of the galaxy, but rather by an ancient super weapon that operates on bizarre and rage inducing principles.

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

The Romulan Star Empire: 8
Reapers: 3

[Twogunkid]

I'm a little salty on this loss