12:6 - Cpl. Dwayne Hicks vs. Mordor

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 6

Cpl. Dwayne Hicks

Slot: The Team's Survivor
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Cpl. Dwayne Hicks at this Wiki
Official Site: 20th Century Fox

Mordor

Slot: The Team's Location
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Mordor at this Wiki
Official Site: The Tolkien Estate

Battle Terrain
Sidekick vs. Terrain

[Mercenaryblade]

He'd do well against the bog standard orcs and various evil humans, even the trolls. But if he comes across a Ringwraith or draws the eyes attention he is screwed. Or if he runs out of ammo. Yes he has hand to hand skills and presumably a combat knife but that would only get him so far against melee proficient fighters. 

[Magnamax]

Similar to a lot of guys with guns, I think Hicks attracts too much attention. Hell get overwhelmed even by orcs and trolls. Factor in Sauron, The Ringwraiths, and Shelob: there are too many factors against a marine in this scenario.

[C.T.]

If he doesn’t go full Leroy Jenkins I could see him lasting.

[RakaiThwei]

I would say that Hicks can survive Mordor. If he survived Hadley's Hope, then he can survive Mordor.

Hicks is smart enough to not draw too much attention for himself. The M41A Pulse Rifle will be too much for the armor which they will Orcs and Trolls will equip themselves with. The armor is too weak against 10mm explosive tip caseless rounds. And then there's the M80 grenades which the M41A Pulse Rifle utilizes.

Hicks can also use the M41A in short controlled bursts rather than full burst. There is even a setting for the M41A for that function. So he can make ammunition last, especially if he has more than one clip. Standard issue M41A magazine clips have 95 rounds if we go by the movie. 99 rounds if we go by Fox era expanded universe canon. So ammo may not be a problem. 

Then there's the Ithaca 37 shotgun. Your basic shotgun. Perfect for up close and midrange.

I can see Hicks going through this. Picking off the Orcs and Trolls. Maybe even taking out Shelob with the M41A Pulse Rifle and the M80 Grenades. He'll know to avoid the Ringwraiths.

If he has the motion tracker on hand, he will know when there's an enemy nearby. So sneak attacks are a no go so long he has that. Plus his helmet allows him infrared vision.

I also don't see Hicks staying in one spot. If he can move around, and if he has the Sentry guns available to him... He'll definitely be fine.

[Magnamax]

4 hours ago, RakaiThwei said:

I would say that Hicks can survive Mordor. If he survived Hadley's Hope, then he can survive Mordor.

Hicks is smart enough to not draw too much attention for himself. The M41A Pulse Rifle will be too much for the armor which they will Orcs and Trolls will equip themselves with. The armor is too weak against 10mm explosive tip caseless rounds. And then there's the M80 grenades which the M41A Pulse Rifle utilizes.

Hicks can also use the M41A in short controlled bursts rather than full burst. There is even a setting for the M41A for that function. So he can make ammunition last, especially if he has more than one clip. Standard issue M41A magazine clips have 95 rounds if we go by the movie. 99 rounds if we go by Fox era expanded universe canon. So ammo may not be a problem. 

Then there's the Ithaca 37 shotgun. Your basic shotgun. Perfect for up close and midrange.

I can see Hicks going through this. Picking off the Orcs and Trolls. Maybe even taking out Shelob with the M41A Pulse Rifle and the M80 Grenades. He'll know to avoid the Ringwraiths.

If he has the motion tracker on hand, he will know when there's an enemy nearby. So sneak attacks are a no go so long he has that. Plus his helmet allows him infrared vision.

I also don't see Hicks staying in one spot. If he can move around, and if he has the Sentry guns available to him... He'll definitely be fine.

If he fires the gun even once, then he is going to die quickly. Surviving Hadley's Hope (even for the short amount of time that he did) involved them being able to seal off certain areas, use remote turrets, and have an entire platoon of marines. He doesn't have the luxury of any of those things in Mordor, and he doesn't have any familiarity with the enemy he is against. 

 

We're talking hundreds of thousands of orcs, tens of thousands of Easterlings, and it might even be much more than that in terms of soldiers on the ground. Untold numbers of trolls, and the ringwraiths will be flying around. Once he's spotted, then the Eye will just keep on him and he will be overwhelmed. He doesn't have enough ammo to kill all of mordor, and his ammunition isn't going to kill the ringwraiths.

I don't think Hicks can effectively go around picking stray orcs and trolls off. Once he draws attention to himself, there isn't going to be a lot of places to hide. 

 

Hicks isn't an expert at sneaking, he's a marine trained for combat. He can't outfight the amount of enemies present in Mordor. Even orcs will just overwhelm him eventually. Mordor should win somewhat comfortably. This isn't the best scenario for Hicks to survive.

[RakaiThwei]

3 hours ago, Magnamax said:

If he fires the gun even once, then he is going to die quickly. Surviving Hadley's Hope (even for the short amount of time that he did) involved them being able to seal off certain areas, use remote turrets, and have an entire platoon of marines. He doesn't have the luxury of any of those things in Mordor, and he doesn't have any familiarity with the enemy he is against.

We're talking hundreds of thousands of orcs, tens of thousands of Easterlings, and it might even be much more than that in terms of soldiers on the ground. Untold numbers of trolls, and the ringwraiths will be flying around. Once he's spotted, then the Eye will just keep on him and he will be overwhelmed. He doesn't have enough ammo to kill all of mordor, and his ammunition isn't going to kill the ringwraiths.

I don't think Hicks can effectively go around picking stray orcs and trolls off. Once he draws attention to himself, there isn't going to be a lot of places to hide.

Hicks isn't an expert at sneaking, he's a marine trained for combat. He can't outfight the amount of enemies present in Mordor. Even orcs will just overwhelm him eventually. Mordor should win somewhat comfortably. This isn't the best scenario for Hicks to survive.

We don't know exactly where in Mordor he's landed and we don't know the means as to how he had gotten there, I mean if he has been Isekai'd there then that might work against him. If you don't know what it means to be isekai'd, it's a new trope in anime and manga where the protagonist has either been summoned magically or was killed and reincarnated in a new realm likely a medieval fantasy based realm. However, if he has been transported there by the Sulaco and dropped off by a UD4L Cheyenne Dropship, it's likely he might be debriefed on the situation, and probably has some idea of the topography and geography.

But... that's a stretch. So let's assume that he was summoned there by some magical means, accidentally with whatever equipment which he had in the movie prior to the shootout scene in the reactor in Hadley's Hope.

Mordor is a very big place from my understanding of it, with it's own different locations and what not. We don't know where he's exactly landed as far as getting there is concerned, but what do we know from Mordor from the media the Tolkien estate has collaborated and released. Well, it's definitely a hellish place, the biome is quite extreme-- a barren wasteland, and in some areas volcanic in activity.

Also, Hick isn't the kind of Colonial Marine to as someone would say Leroy Jenkins his way into a fight-- that more or less would be Pvt. William Hudson, as seen in the Medlab segment of the movie ALIENS. Hicks had to take up the role of leader and he had to give commands, a lot of them quite strategic and well thought out as he was giving orders to the remaining Colonial Marines, who had happened to be Pvt. William Hudson, PFC. Jenette Vasquez, and Lt. William Gorman (Gorman outranks Hicks but... Gorman was a newbie, and Hicks took charge for the most part).

As mentioned before, Mordor is a very big place with many different locations, and yet... People seem to think that it's entirely Mount Doom, which isn't at all the case. I would think that the worse location for Hick to be in is Mount Doom. But who says that he's landed there, or somewhere else? For all we know he could be in the other locations like Lithlad, Minas Morgul, Fred Galmoth, Udun, etc...

Also, I'm not sure if there are THAT many of the opposition covering per square inch of Mordor. While I am inclined to believe that the general populace there is quite unwelcoming and inhospitable, I am not even so sure if they are aware of his presence right off the bat. If anything, I would think as Hicks is getting his bearings, one goal of his would be to not engage the enemy, if possible and try to get away. Also, it's not doubt that he's better equipped and assuming he does come across a group of maybe ten to twenty Orcs or Trolls, who's to say he can't take them out with quick and controlled burst from his M41A Pulse Rifle if they do aggressive approach him, or better yet, take a large number of them out with a well placed aim from the grenade launcher in the M41A releasing the M80 grenades, either killing or maiming the approaching and aggressive Orcs, Trolls, or Men? Dead men tell no tales.

As for the Ringwraiths, sure there's not much which he can do about them but if Hicks is smart enough and I would like to think that he is, common sense would urge him not to even try to engage them, and instead avoid them if he can. He doesn't have to fight them, if he can avoid them as a primary goal.

Surviving isn't about just fighting, sometimes it means evading and running away when necessary to live long enough to make it. And I am fairly confident that Hicks can do just that.

 

[Magnamax]

8 hours ago, RakaiThwei said:

We don't know exactly where in Mordor he's landed and we don't know the means as to how he had gotten there, I mean if he has been Isekai'd there then that might work against him. If you don't know what it means to be isekai'd, it's a new trope in anime and manga where the protagonist has either been summoned magically or was killed and reincarnated in a new realm likely a medieval fantasy based realm. However, if he has been transported there by the Sulaco and dropped off by a UD4L Cheyenne Dropship, it's likely he might be debriefed on the situation, and probably has some idea of the topography and geography.

But... that's a stretch. So let's assume that he was summoned there by some magical means, accidentally with whatever equipment which he had in the movie prior to the shootout scene in the reactor in Hadley's Hope.

Mordor is a very big place from my understanding of it, with it's own different locations and what not. We don't know where he's exactly landed as far as getting there is concerned, but what do we know from Mordor from the media the Tolkien estate has collaborated and released. Well, it's definitely a hellish place, the biome is quite extreme-- a barren wasteland, and in some areas volcanic in activity.

Also, Hick isn't the kind of Colonial Marine to as someone would say Leroy Jenkins his way into a fight-- that more or less would be Pvt. William Hudson, as seen in the Medlab segment of the movie ALIENS. Hicks had to take up the role of leader and he had to give commands, a lot of them quite strategic and well thought out as he was giving orders to the remaining Colonial Marines, who had happened to be Pvt. William Hudson, PFC. Jenette Vasquez, and Lt. William Gorman (Gorman outranks Hicks but... Gorman was a newbie, and Hicks took charge for the most part).

As mentioned before, Mordor is a very big place with many different locations, and yet... People seem to think that it's entirely Mount Doom, which isn't at all the case. I would think that the worse location for Hick to be in is Mount Doom. But who says that he's landed there, or somewhere else? For all we know he could be in the other locations like Lithlad, Minas Morgul, Fred Galmoth, Udun, etc...

Also, I'm not sure if there are THAT many of the opposition covering per square inch of Mordor. While I am inclined to believe that the general populace there is quite unwelcoming and inhospitable, I am not even so sure if they are aware of his presence right off the bat. If anything, I would think as Hicks is getting his bearings, one goal of his would be to not engage the enemy, if possible and try to get away. Also, it's not doubt that he's better equipped and assuming he does come across a group of maybe ten to twenty Orcs or Trolls, who's to say he can't take them out with quick and controlled burst from his M41A Pulse Rifle if they do aggressive approach him, or better yet, take a large number of them out with a well placed aim from the grenade launcher in the M41A releasing the M80 grenades, either killing or maiming the approaching and aggressive Orcs, Trolls, or Men? Dead men tell no tales.

As for the Ringwraiths, sure there's not much which he can do about them but if Hicks is smart enough and I would like to think that he is, common sense would urge him not to even try to engage them, and instead avoid them if he can. He doesn't have to fight them, if he can avoid them as a primary goal.

Surviving isn't about just fighting, sometimes it means evading and running away when necessary to live long enough to make it. And I am fairly confident that Hicks can do just that.

 

The picture shows both Mount Doom and Bara-Dur, so it’s safe to assume that is the area he’s being placed in to survive. Even if he’s dropped off at Minas Morgul, that’s the home of the witch king so I think it’s the same kind of situation.

 

I don’t think there’s any evidence to auggest that Hicks is an adept sneaking-type, and his gun is EXTREMELY loud. The second he fires that, the eye is going to be fixed on him, Nazgûl will be investigating the area and every orc in the area will be on top of him. 
 

And I do think it is that densely populated, After the forces of Sauron lose 100,000+ in the battle of pelenor fields, it’s still covered in an even greater army of orcs, trolls and men. There’s no war to distract the forces of Mordor, and nothing distracting the eye of Sauron. 24 hours is a long time to avoid that many dangers, and I don’t think that kind of survivability is what Hicks’ strengths are. 
 

Again, once he has to fire his weapon, it’s over, once a stray orc spots him, it’s over, once a Ringwraith gets on his tail, it’s over, and once Sauron spots him, it’s over.

[RakaiThwei]

15 hours ago, Magnamax said:

The picture shows both Mount Doom and Bara-Dur, so it’s safe to assume that is the area he’s being placed in to survive. Even if he’s dropped off at Minas Morgul, that’s the home of the witch king so I think it’s the same kind of situation.

While this is indeed true that the image shown is Mount Doom and Bara-Dur, there is no properly written set up and the regional name of Mordor is meant to encompass the whole region. This would be like if the match was used for The United States of America, and the picture showed the White House or the Statue of Liberty when it could be Anywhere, USA. I find that this is a similar situation. We don't know HOW Hicks got there, we don't know WHERE he currently is except for Mordor, and that could mean ANYWHERE, and Mordor as a whole is generally a hostile place. Perhaps some areas more than others.

15 hours ago, Magnamax said:

I don’t think there’s any evidence to auggest that Hicks is an adept sneaking-type, and his gun is EXTREMELY loud. The second he fires that, the eye is going to be fixed on him, Nazgûl will be investigating the area and every orc in the area will be on top of him.

Except that Cpl. Dwayne Hicks is a United States Colonial Marine, and as far as I am aware-- that's still a United States Marine. If he's suddenly found himself in a whole new environment which he is a complete stranger towards, then the one thing he's going to want to do is reconnaissance. Now if the USCMC are at all similar to the real life United States Marine Corps, then it's highly likely that Hicks was trained and is adept at clandestine missions such as reconnaissance. This means, that it's very likely that like our real life United States Marine Corps, the USCMC are trained in stealth tactics for reconnaissance. I had to look up if Marines were trained in stealth, and this is what came up.

“A reconnaissance team is a six-man team that must remain clandestine during missions,” Dare said. “They must remain unseen. If they are compromised and receive contact, those six members need to move and shoot well in order to defend themselves. They need a higher set of skills to get out of a situation because they don’t have the numbers (in personnel) to help get them out.”

Source: https://www.mcbhawaii.marines.mil/News/News-Article-Display/Article/540179/recon-marines-aim-for-stealth-precision/

Now given that Cpl. Hicks is likely alone and doesn't have five other members with him, he's probably going to figure that the numbers are likely against him and his first thing to do is to go into reconnaissance and AVOID enemy contact. So really, his main priority is to not fight if he doesn't have to. I'm pretty sure that the USCMC still teach the Marines this in boot camp before graduating and being sent out on missions.

15 hours ago, Magnamax said:

And I do think it is that densely populated, After the forces of Sauron lose 100,000+ in the battle of pelenor fields, it’s still covered in an even greater army of orcs, trolls and men. There’s no war to distract the forces of Mordor, and nothing distracting the eye of Sauron. 24 hours is a long time to avoid that many dangers, and I don’t think that kind of survivability is what Hicks’ strengths are.

Again, once he has to fire his weapon, it’s over, once a stray orc spots him, it’s over, once a Ringwraith gets on his tail, it’s over, and once Sauron spots him, it’s over.

I'm getting the picture that you're saying that Mordor is so densely packed that every per square inch of the land is PACKED with Orcs, Trolls, Men, Ringwraiths, etc to the point where NOTHING should be able to move not even a millimeter. Kind of like a box of crayons, if you will and... I just don't see that. I'm pretty sure that while the numbers are against Hicks, it's not like ever millimeter is packed with tens to hundreds of those things. Pretty sure that there are some areas where they aren't covering.

Also, how good is an Orc's level of hearing, or a troll's for that matter? I mean... I can probably buy that they have a good sense of smell, maybe hearing but it's been a while since I've seen the movies, and I've never really read the books. As for Orcs and Trolls, from what I recall... they weren't that particularly intelligent. So, there's no reason why I can't picture Hicks avoiding them.

Also, how far can the eye of Sauron see? Is it through out the entirety of Mordor or just around the Mt. Doom area? This was something I had to look up and I got one interesting answer.

Quote

 

Let’s have a look at the following excerpt:

“Without any clear purpose he drew out the Ring and put it on again. Immediately he felt the great burden of its weight, and felt afresh, but now more strong and urgent than ever, the malice of the Eye of Mordor, searching, trying to pierce the shadows that it had made for its own defence, but which now hindered it in its unquiet and doubt.”

 

Here the Eye can’t see very far because it’s blocked by its own shadow. This could be seen both as Sauron’s eyes being physically blocked, but it could also be that his shadows hinders his searching will.

“And then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye: and then the shadows were furled again as the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay.”

 

In this passage you can see all three forms – maybe in this short vision Frodo actually sees more than the regular eye could have seen of Sauron: the flicker of his eyes. Maybe the vision was about showing Frodo the Eye for once, so that he actually saw it instead of “just” feeling it. But there is also the focus of the Eye towards the Captains. If it’s Sauron’s physical vision, it would at least reach from Barad-dûr to the Morannon.

“And far away, as Frodo put on the Ring and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the Power in Barad-dûr was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made: and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare.”

 

And the last one: again it could be or is all three versions: the focus, the will, and maybe even Sauron’s actual vision. If we interpret it as his physical sight, it’s the distance of Barad-dûr to Mount Doom. The Eye as a hostile will is also able to see Frodo now cleary, because he has declared himself. And naturally that draws Sauron’s focus on him.

Tl;dr

The Eye of Saruon couldn’t actually see very far. In the unseen world it could neither see Galadriel nor Frodo (until the end at least), and it seems that either his will or his actual vision was hindered by his own darkness. At the most I think he could see as far as the borders of his country, but not further – for everything else he had his servants. His focus was in many places, but not in equal measure, and the free people that worked against him tried to distract him as much as possible.

Source: https://www.quora.com/How-far-could-the-Eye-of-Sauron-see

So gathered from what I understand, the Eye of Sauron cannot see very far. It's most certainly not omnipotent and I've also gathered from a few other sources that it cannot see through barriers, unless someone is wearing The One Ring such as the case with Frodo. Also the Eye of Sauron has some hindrances on the darkness of Sauron's own being. Take that however you will. But it's most certainly not this omnipotent thing that's being painted as such.

[Magnamax]

1 hour ago, RakaiThwei said:

While this is indeed true that the image shown is Mount Doom and Bara-Dur, there is no properly written set up and the regional name of Mordor is meant to encompass the whole region. This would be like if the match was used for The United States of America, and the picture showed the White House or the Statue of Liberty when it could be Anywhere, USA. I find that this is a similar situation. We don't know HOW Hicks got there, we don't know WHERE he currently is except for Mordor, and that could mean ANYWHERE, and Mordor as a whole is generally a hostile place. Perhaps some areas more than others.

Except that Cpl. Dwayne Hicks is a United States Colonial Marine, and as far as I am aware-- that's still a United States Marine. If he's suddenly found himself in a whole new environment which he is a complete stranger towards, then the one thing he's going to want to do is reconnaissance. Now if the USCMC are at all similar to the real life United States Marine Corps, then it's highly likely that Hicks was trained and is adept at clandestine missions such as reconnaissance. This means, that it's very likely that like our real life United States Marine Corps, the USCMC are trained in stealth tactics for reconnaissance. I had to look up if Marines were trained in stealth, and this is what came up.

“A reconnaissance team is a six-man team that must remain clandestine during missions,” Dare said. “They must remain unseen. If they are compromised and receive contact, those six members need to move and shoot well in order to defend themselves. They need a higher set of skills to get out of a situation because they don’t have the numbers (in personnel) to help get them out.”

Source: https://www.mcbhawaii.marines.mil/News/News-Article-Display/Article/540179/recon-marines-aim-for-stealth-precision/

Now given that Cpl. Hicks is likely alone and doesn't have five other members with him, he's probably going to figure that the numbers are likely against him and his first thing to do is to go into reconnaissance and AVOID enemy contact. So really, his main priority is to not fight if he doesn't have to. I'm pretty sure that the USCMC still teach the Marines this in boot camp before graduating and being sent out on missions.

I'm getting the picture that you're saying that Mordor is so densely packed that every per square inch of the land is PACKED with Orcs, Trolls, Men, Ringwraiths, etc to the point where NOTHING should be able to move not even a millimeter. Kind of like a box of crayons, if you will and... I just don't see that. I'm pretty sure that while the numbers are against Hicks, it's not like ever millimeter is packed with tens to hundreds of those things. Pretty sure that there are some areas where they aren't covering.

Also, how good is an Orc's level of hearing, or a troll's for that matter? I mean... I can probably buy that they have a good sense of smell, maybe hearing but it's been a while since I've seen the movies, and I've never really read the books. As for Orcs and Trolls, from what I recall... they weren't that particularly intelligent. So, there's no reason why I can't picture Hicks avoiding them.

Also, how far can the eye of Sauron see? Is it through out the entirety of Mordor or just around the Mt. Doom area? This was something I had to look up and I got one interesting answer.

Source: https://www.quora.com/How-far-could-the-Eye-of-Sauron-see

So gathered from what I understand, the Eye of Sauron cannot see very far. It's most certainly not omnipotent and I've also gathered from a few other sources that it cannot see through barriers, unless someone is wearing The One Ring such as the case with Frodo. Also the Eye of Sauron has some hindrances on the darkness of Sauron's own being. Take that however you will. But it's most certainly not this omnipotent thing that's being painted as such.

I'll address the last point first: the section you've quoted states that he is physically looking at the Captains of the West, who are outside of Mordor at that point. He can certainly see within Mordor and that's all that really matters for this challenge. That passage is from a delirious Frodo at the tail-end of the novel, but the suggestion is pretty consistent that he can at least keep his eye on any movement in Mordor, and to at least the outer regions. That's enough for him to keep fixed on Hicks. It's also important that the books portray Sauron as having to track what's going on throughout Middle-Earth, as a war is being fought on a dozen different fronts, and he's searching for the ring, and he's trying to be tabs on Sauruman (who might be betraying him). Here, he only needs to focus on one man. That makes a difference for how easily he can track Hicks.

It's a survival challenge that is set up for Hicks to try and live through the dangers of Mordor. He's not going to get dropped somewhere that isn't dangerous. The USA example is obviously different with context: Hicks is trying to survive Mordor, which denotes him having to endure the rigors of that place. This is a specific Mordor challenge. Frodo and Sam try to sneak through Mordor in a path of least resistance, and that still involves fighting Shelob and running into an entire army.

You're moving the goalposts on the soldiers in the area. Of course they aren't swarming every milimeter, but the place is swarming with so many different armies that any foreign sound like a gunshot is going to draw hordes of them to that area, in addition to the Eye of Sauron which, again, can see anywhere within the area. He's going up against hundreds of thousands to millions of footsoldiers, plus very mobile threats in the Ringwraiths. If he isn't perfectly stealthy, then he is dead. Hicks has no feats of being stealthy.

Comparing him to a real-life marine doesn't click. It's a far-flung sci-fi world that plays by different rules. When he is faced with a dangerous situation that he knows nothing about in Aliens, Hicks doesn't run reconnaissance, and he doesn't use stealth. They immediately try to engage with the enemy and get overwhelmed. That situation is where Hicks has backup and less opponents to deal with than in this scenario. Again, there is no tangible evidence for Hicks' skill in sneaking and going slow. If he isn't perfect in his stealth abilities, then he is going to get spotted. Once that happens, and once he has to engage, then every orc in the area is drawn to him, the eye is drawn to him, and the Nazghul are drawn to him. Then, it's just a matter of time. 

As for hearing, they can certainly hear a gunshot, and they have a good sense of smell, both things working pretty heavily against Hicks.

He's badly outnumbered and doesn't show direct skills that would help him survive in Mordor. He's going to engage with a threat, then be dead within the next hour. 

[RakaiThwei]

1 hour ago, Magnamax said:

I'll address the last point first: the section you've quoted states that he is physically looking at the Captains of the West, who are outside of Mordor at that point. He can certainly see within Mordor and that's all that really matters for this challenge. That passage is from a delirious Frodo at the tail-end of the novel, but the suggestion is pretty consistent that he can at least keep his eye on any movement in Mordor, and to at least the outer regions. That's enough for him to keep fixed on Hicks. It's also important that the books portray Sauron as having to track what's going on throughout Middle-Earth, as a war is being fought on a dozen different fronts, and he's searching for the ring, and he's trying to be tabs on Sauruman (who might be betraying him). Here, he only needs to focus on one man. That makes a difference for how easily he can track Hicks.

Fair enough.

1 hour ago, Magnamax said:

It's a survival challenge that is set up for Hicks to try and live through the dangers of Mordor. He's not going to get dropped somewhere that isn't dangerous. The USA example is obviously different with context: Hicks is trying to survive Mordor, which denotes him having to endure the rigors of that place. This is a specific Mordor challenge. Frodo and Sam try to sneak through Mordor in a path of least resistance, and that still involves fighting Shelob and running into an entire army.

As far as I am aware, there's no proper set up and an exact location to where he is actually dropped. And as far as I know about Mordor, it's pretty much a hostile region. From what I know of the United States Colonial Marine Corps, they specialize in force projection and are trained to operate independently in environments far from home. So, we also have to consider that Hicks likely has been trained in survival tactics as well.  I also still stand by my argument that the United States Colonial Marine Corps are trained in reconnaissance operations. Most military factions are.

1 hour ago, Magnamax said:

You're moving the goalposts on the soldiers in the area. Of course they aren't swarming every milimeter, but the place is swarming with so many different armies that any foreign sound like a gunshot is going to draw hordes of them to that area, in addition to the Eye of Sauron which, again, can see anywhere within the area. He's going up against hundreds of thousands to millions of footsoldiers, plus very mobile threats in the Ringwraiths. If he isn't perfectly stealthy, then he is dead. Hicks has no feats of being stealthy.

Hicks isn't Hudson, so he isn't as very gung-ho and ready to fire the M41A Pulse Rifle if he has to. He's very level headed, and seemingly has prior experience in dealing with situations in a hostile environment prior to the events of Hadley's Hope on LV-426. As a matter of fact, he's actually third in command in the chain of rank-- right underneath Sgt. Al Apone, who is underneath Lt. William Gorman. As we've seen in the events of ALIENS, Hicks has shown a strategic mind and cool head in the heat of a very terrible situation, where as Hudson... was going completely bonkers.

Again, I do not see Hicks outright confronting these things unless he is spotted by say an Orc, Troll or a Man. Also, considering the topography of Mordor, it appears to be a very rocky terrain and I would think he could use that for cover, and get around these things to avoid confrontation.

As for Hicks not being stealthy, I'll get to that point.

1 hour ago, Magnamax said:

Comparing him to a real-life marine doesn't click. It's a far-flung sci-fi world that plays by different rules. When he is faced with a dangerous situation that he knows nothing about in Aliens, Hicks doesn't run reconnaissance, and he doesn't use stealth. They immediately try to engage with the enemy and get overwhelmed. That situation is where Hicks has backup and less opponents to deal with than in this scenario. Again, there is no tangible evidence for Hicks' skill in sneaking and going slow. If he isn't perfect in his stealth abilities, then he is going to get spotted. Once that happens, and once he has to engage, then every orc in the area is drawn to him, the eye is drawn to him, and the Nazghul are drawn to him. Then, it's just a matter of time.

Except, comparing him to a real life Marine can be applied because the United States Colonial Marines are the successors to the United States Marine Corps. So it's very much likely that they have kept the same training with a few updates here and there. Also, a little behind the scenes factoid here but the actors in the movie ALIENS were actually put through boot camp by former real life Marine, Sgt. Al Matthews, who also happened to play Sgt. Al Apone in the movie. So everything you were seeing in the movie Aliens, is real military training at hand there.

As for you point about Hicks not running reconnaissance and not using stealth, keep in mind this was a rescue mission which was to check up on why the colonists on LV-426 lost contact and they expected it to be nothing more than a downed transmitter (hence why the Marines said it's a "Bug Hunt" meaning waste of time). However, they did read Ripley's debriefing (Hicks seemed to anyway, as he said "Looks like someone must've bagged one of Ripley's bad guys."). They weren't going up against a hostile human force. As to why they were overwhelmed by the Xenomorphs, for one they had a highly inexperienced commander in the form of Lt. Gorman, and they were unable to use their Pulse Rifles because they were underneath the Atmosphere Process and risked rupturing the cooling system (which... occurred by either the M56 Smartguns fired off by Drake and Vasquez or by Ripley smashing the APC through the wall). So they were screwed by circumstance. Hicks compensated this problem by using the Ithaca Model 37 shotgun, which proved effective against the Xenomorphs along side the M56 Smartguns but likely didn't risk damaging the Atmosphere Processor cooling units.

There's no reason to not assume that Hicks isn't going to do his best to avoid enemy contact. That's just outrageous to think that he is unable to do so.

1 hour ago, Magnamax said:

As for hearing, they can certainly hear a gunshot, and they have a good sense of smell, both things working pretty heavily against Hicks.

He's badly outnumbered and doesn't show direct skills that would help him survive in Mordor. He's going to engage with a threat, then be dead within the next hour. 

I'm not sure how far an Orc can hear, but as far as the M41A Pulse Rifle goes-- it has a pretty decent range of effectiveness, especially with the grenade launcher. According to the United States Colonial Marines Tech Manual, it has an effective range of 400 meters, which converted to feet is 1,312.34 feet and has a muzzle of 78 miles per second. It's accurate range is a 180 meters or 590.551 feet if you want to go by US feet conversions. So, the M41A Pulse Rifle definitely gives Hicks the edge in range and assuming he has to confront these things, this might be something helpful to him as far as dealing with Orcs go. Possibly even making use of the M80 grenade launcher in the M41A Pulse Rifle.

Some really neat technical specs of the M41A Pulse Rifle here.

As far as Orc senses go, it seems as if some are bred with better senses than others-- and there's even one instance where Hunter type Orcs have even lost the scent of both Frodo and Samgee.

Quote

 

“Hardly twenty paces from where the hobbits lurked the small orc stopped. ‘Nar!’ it snarled. ‘I’m going home.’ It pointed across the valley to the orc-hold. ‘No good wearing my nose out on stones any more. There’s not a trace left, I say. I’ve lost the scent through giving way to you. It went up into the hills, not along the valley, I tell you.’

‘Not much use are you, you little snufflers?’ said the big orc. ‘I reckon eyes are better than your snotty noses.’

‘Then what have you seen with them?’ snarled the other.”

 

Source: https://www.quora.com/Do-orcs-have-as-keen-of-senses-as-elves-in-the-Tolkien-universe

So... the Orcs had lost the scent of two Hobbits whom they were actively looking for, just twenty paces from where they were-- which is pretty damn close if I count my own steps where I am currently sitting from in my room right now. These very Orcs lost the trail of two Hobbits who likely haven't had any military training just makes me think Hick's chances of avoiding these things might be better than what's being argued against him.

However, in the same link I shared, it's mentioned that the Orcs have developed night vision from so many years of living in the dark, but also are severely compromised by sunlight-- which... the M90 Marking Flares might prove useful considering how bright they burn, may provide some discomfort to the Orc eyes and allow Hicks to escape if he sets them up to provide them as a distraction. However, there's... a confusing statement made my Smeagol regarding this topic.
 

Quote

 

“We should be glad to see the Sun,’ said Frodo, ‘but we will stay here: we are too tired to go any further at present.’

‘You are not wise to be glad of the Yellow Face,’ said Gollum. ‘It shows you up. Nice sensible hobbits stay with Sméagol. Orcs and nasty things are about. They can see a long way. Stay and hide with me!”

 

Now, whether or not he's talking about the Orcs or the Nazgul, isn't really clear. But given that the source is questionable, as it's Smeagol/Gollum, isn't enough to support sharpness or keen levels of Orc senses.

But assuming it is talking about Orc senses... raises something else. Hick's camouflage gear.

Despite Hicks wearing the USCMC M3 Pattern Armor, it's still patterned to provide some level of camouflage. Now, as far as I know on Mordor on quick google Image searches, it's a rocky terrain, dark, mountainous. I would think that perhaps from a far, it might provide Hicks some level of camo-- assuming he leaves his shoulder lamp off and doesn't use the flares to draw attention, which... why would he? The Orcs have keen senses, but nowhere nearly as good as their Elven counterparts. I mean if Orc's senses of vision aren't as keen as an Elves, I would think the camo armor and clothes might be of help.

As for the Uruk-Hai, well... based on the link I read there, it seems as if their senses are further dulled because they're further corrupted by being interbred with Men. So Hicks getting around Uruk-Hai, shouldn't be too much of a stretch either.

[Culwych1]

I think the main question, like with previous Mordor vs "modern character" matches, is whether they encounter a Nazgul or other undead where their weaponry, or running/hiding just won't be effective. So I guess the question then is whether they would do enough to attract the attention of the undead. 

 

 

[RakaiThwei]

1 hour ago, Culwych1 said:

I think the main question, like with previous Mordor vs "modern character" matches, is whether they encounter a Nazgul or other undead where their weaponry, or running/hiding just won't be effective. So I guess the question then is whether they would do enough to attract the attention of the undead. 

That's where I believe that if Hicks spots the Nazgul or Ringwraiths from afar with the infrared binoculars that most USCMC members are equipped with, he'll likely deduce that those are things he wants to avoid getting the attention of.

[Magnamax]

2 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

I think the main question, like with previous Mordor vs "modern character" matches, is whether they encounter a Nazgul or other undead where their weaponry, or running/hiding just won't be effective. So I guess the question then is whether they would do enough to attract the attention of the undead. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, RakaiThwei said:

That's where I believe that if Hicks spots the Nazgul or Ringwraiths from afar with the infrared binoculars that most USCMC members are equipped with, he'll likely deduce that those are things he wants to avoid getting the attention of.

I appreciate the long post Rakai, though I think we’re at pretty much the fundamental disagreement here.

 

I think it’s simply far too likely that Kicks is going to be spotted, by orcs and then by the eye. When Mordor is alerted to his presence, then it’s just a matter of how long it takes the Witch King or one of the other Nazgûl to fly over there.

 

That’s if Hicks isn’t already killed from the sheer number of enemies that would be on top of him. The pulse rifle is impressive, but you can only shoot so many. 
 

The odds are heavily stacked against Hicks, and while he is level-headed, that doesn’t mean he’s great at sneaking which, again, he has no feats to support he is an adept hiding type. The marines in the Aliens universe seem more run and gun, grunt types. 24 hours is a very long type to remain undetected with this many hostile forces. I simply don’t see how Hicks makes it that long without being discovered.

[RakaiThwei]

15 hours ago, Magnamax said:

I appreciate the long post Rakai, though I think we’re at pretty much the fundamental disagreement here.

It has been YEARS since I debated in favor for a character from the Alien-Predator Universe. Kind of takes me back though I would say that my knowledge on the Alien-Predator universe is now obsolete on account that the knowledge I built up for over twenty years from the material I've read, watched and played extensively has now been rebooted and retconned to non-canonical status with the Disney acquisition of Twentieth Century Fox's intellectual properties. Disney is very slowly recreating a new expanded universe material based on the movies, and seemingly has... done away with the whole shared universe of Alien-Predator, undoing 30 years of continuity and... more or less creating two or three separate universes which maybe incoherent with one another.

15 hours ago, Magnamax said:

I think it’s simply far too likely that Kicks is going to be spotted, by orcs and then by the eye. When Mordor is alerted to his presence, then it’s just a matter of how long it takes the Witch King or one of the other Nazgûl to fly over there.

And this is where I disagree. The only things which I see are being a problem are the Ringwraiths but I see Hicks assessing the situation, and coming to a good deduction that it would be a good idea to avoid enemy contact, meaning minimal fighting or no fighting at all-- thus not drawing attention to himself. That's part of recon. A big part. And I see Hicks implement reconnaissance tactics along with survival.

15 hours ago, Magnamax said:

That’s if Hicks isn’t already killed from the sheer number of enemies that would be on top of him. The pulse rifle is impressive, but you can only shoot so many.

Assuming that the opposition doesn't notice him and he isn't spotted or drawn attention to himself. The M41A Pulse Rifle is definitely indeed impressive, and considering that the Orcs, Uruk-hai, and Men likely are wearing armor, even one single round from the M41A is going to be devastating to them. The rounds are meant to pierce the armor, and explode, turning the armor to shrapnel and harm the wearer. But I'm not arguing that Hicks can waste them all, that's a fool's argument. Ammunition is finite and likely quite limited, so he has to make the rounds last, assuming he has to fight-- which I am certain he will try and avoid to do.

15 hours ago, Magnamax said:

The odds are heavily stacked against Hicks, and while he is level-headed, that doesn’t mean he’s great at sneaking which, again, he has no feats to support he is an adept hiding type. The marines in the Aliens universe seem more run and gun, grunt types. 24 hours is a very long type to remain undetected with this many hostile forces. I simply don’t see how Hicks makes it that long without being discovered.

Cpl. Dwayne Hicks is definitely no ninja but he's definitely not the kind to go all Gung-Ho like Pvt. William Hudson did in the Med-Lab scene. As for the United States Colonial Marine Corps being Run and Gun types in the Alien-Predator Universe, well... this is not at all entirely true. In the old expanded universe material, they've displayed quite the tactical aptitude which makes them challenging to the likes of the Xenomorphs and the Yautja, otherwise known as Predators, and have even worked alongside the a clan of Yautja against a Bad Blood clan who were utilizing the Xenomorphs as attack dogs. But that was in the Pre-Reboot era before Prometheus occured, and Fire and Stone was written, in the Prometheus era of the comics-- the Marines even went up against the Engineers and the Yautja. Now with Marvel publishing the comics, the Prometheus era has been likely relegated to non-canon status, and a new canon is being established.

Also, I should note that there are quite a few divisions in the United States Colonial Marine Corps, the division which Hicks was part of was the Rifle Platoon stationed at the Conestoga class USS Sulaco. As far as I am aware, this information comes from the movie, as well as the  United States Colonial Marines Tech Manual and the Weyland Yutani Report. So, saying the Marines are just run and gun is not really a fair assessment.

[Fox]

I think Mordor is one of the more consistently dangerous terrains in play.  However, I believe that the skillful character can get through it and I lean Hicks here.

In the film Return of the King we get a really good look at how Mordor operates and we learn a few things.

•  it has wide stretches of open wasteland.
•  the Eye passes over you if you keep your head down.
•  it's fairly easy to get Orcs to fight one another - case in point, when Sam solos the tower looking for Frodo.
•  Shelob will not survive an encounter with Hicks future tech, nor will any Orcs.

It's really down to Hicks not be spotted by a Nazgul, IMO. Hicks has no chance against a Nazgul which cannot be killed by men. It's literally gender specific what can kill it.

I think, in general, Hicks has the right training and attitude to keep low and get through a day.

 

 

[Magnamax]

5 hours ago, Fox said:

I think Mordor is one of the more consistently dangerous terrains in play.  However, I believe that the skillful character can get through it and I lean Hicks here.

In the film Return of the King we get a really good look at how Mordor operates and we learn a few things.

•  it has wide stretches of open wasteland.
•  the Eye passes over you if you keep your head down.
•  it's fairly easy to get Orcs to fight one another - case in point, when Sam solos the tower looking for Frodo.
•  Shelob will not survive an encounter with Hicks future tech, nor will any Orcs.

It's really down to Hicks not be spotted by a Nazgul, IMO. Hicks has no chance against a Nazgul which cannot be killed by men. It's literally gender specific what can kill it.

I think, in general, Hicks has the right training and attitude to keep low and get through a day.

 

 

Return of the King isn't a good example for a typical day in Mordor is going to be like. Large swaths of it are emptied because Sauron just emptied a good chunk of his forces to fight at Minar Tirith, then sent most of his remaining host to engage with Aragorn and the others at the black gate. When Mordor is at it's normal operating manpower, then hundreds of thousands of orcs will be filling those wasteland gaps.

 

Ditto for the eye, Sauron is consistently distracted by Aragorn in that final encounter. He thinks Aragorn has taken the ring and plans to use it. Hicks has no such distraction here. The orcs were already fighting each other when Sam got there, sure I guess that's a possibility, but there are going to be a lot more of them present without several battles/wars draining their manpower.

 

It's presumptive to say Shelob won't survive an encounter. Sam and Frodo used a very specific magical item to delay/stun Shelob and in general are being guided by other forces to keep alive. In the film it's shown as Galadriel, in the books they are guided by Eru Iluvatar. If Hicks gets caught in a web, he is certainly dying.

 

Again, I think one burst from an extremely futuristic weapon is all it takes for Sauron to put all his attention on that area, given that he has nothing else to be distracted with, and then all the Nazgul will be on top of him. 

[RiotGear]

10 hours ago, Fox said:

Hicks has no chance against a Nazgul which cannot be killed by men. It's literally gender specific what can kill it.

Minor corrections. The Witch King is the only one subject to the "..not by the hand of man will he fall." Prophecy, not the Nazgul as a group and it's just that a prophecy saying how he will die. Not a protective magic/aura that doesn't allow him to be killed by men.

[Magnamax]

9 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Minor corrections. The Witch King is the only one subject to the "..not by the hand of man will he fall." Prophecy, not the Nazgul as a group and it's just that a prophecy saying how he will die. Not a protective magic/aura that doesn't allow him to be killed by men.

This is fair, but Merry and Eowyn used specific magic swords to take out the Witch King, bullets aren’t going to kill him. Mortal weapons aren’t going to be effective.

[Magnamax]

I’ll sum up by pointing out: this basically has a soldier trying to survive behind heavily packed enemy lines, with some indestructible, highly mobile opponents that can be augmented by magic. There’s a tower that can track him and he has no knowledge of the terrain: a really tough matchup for a fighter.

[Twogunkid]

As long as we are mentioning the Witch King, Tolkien made him have that prophecy because he felt Macbeth wasted the opportunity to have a woman kill Macbeth especially with the themes of female agency already seen in the play with Lady Macbeth.

 

So what does Tolkien do? Decides to add one upping Shakespeare to his todo list and includes it as part of the Lord of the Rings.

[RakaiThwei]

12 hours ago, Fox said:

It's really down to Hicks not be spotted by a Nazgul, IMO. Hicks has no chance against a Nazgul which cannot be killed by men. It's literally gender specific what can kill it.

I think, in general, Hicks has the right training and attitude to keep low and get through a day.

And that's why I argue that the moment Hicks sees these things from a distance with the infrared binoculars, he will notice these ghost like things and deduce not to get their attention. Given his personality and his level-headed way of thinking, he'd definitely figure that out.

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Cpl. Dwayne Hicks: 6
Mordor: 10