12:8 - Beta Ray Bill vs. Captain Marvel / Shazam

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 8

Beta Ray Bill

Slot: The Team's Big Gun
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Beta Ray Bill at this Wiki
Official Site: Marvel Comics

Captain Marvel / Shazam

Slot: The Team's Big Gun
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Captain Marvel / Shazam at this Wiki
Official Site: D.C Comics

Battle Terrain
Combat Terrain: Asgard

[C.T.]

A cool fight!

[Peypeypeypey]

This is like Horse-Thor vs Magic-Superman. Typically, Superman and Thor are pretty even, with the edge often given to Thor because he uses magic, which Superman has no immunity to. However, Shazam isn't going to have that same weakness. I'm not sure how this would go

[Twogunkid]

As @Peypeypeypeypointed out Captain Marvel is a peer to superman and power. Any edge Thor has is typically from magic.

 

JLA Avengers also gave the edge to the big blue boy scout already.

So peer of Superman with increased protection vs magic vs peer of Thor with less overall power?

Billy Batson stands tall. Going to be a great fight though.

 

[Magnamax]

2 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

This is like Horse-Thor vs Magic-Superman. Typically, Superman and Thor are pretty even, with the edge often given to Thor because he uses magic, which Superman has no immunity to. However, Shazam isn't going to have that same weakness. I'm not sure how this would go

 

38 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

As @Peypeypeypeypointed out Captain Marvel is a peer to superman and power. Any edge Thor has is typically from magic.

 

JLA Avengers also gave the edge to the big blue boy scout already.

So peer of Superman with increased protection vs magic vs peer of Thor with less overall power?

Billy Batson stands tall. Going to be a great fight though.

 

I don’t believe that comic is canon, even if it is it doesn’t necessarily prove that Shazam can beat Bill.

 

Bill has taken out Thor before, knocked him around and then he as smart enough to separate him from Mjornir and turn him back into human form. 
 

Storm breaker can absorb energy blasts, and has done so against Stardust and Silver Surfer, so I don’t think magic does much for Shazam.

Bill is a planet-buster on his own, and is strong enough to crack Galactus’ armor: https://m.imgur.com/JOnneL7

He can also tank blasts from Galactus: https://m.imgur.com/2oo1ZXj

 

He’s also fast enough to deal with Surfer, who is faster than Shazam.

 

Straight-up I think Bill has a higher strength, durability, and speed ceiling than Shazam. I also think he’s got a little more versatility with energy projection and absorption that should carry the day.

 

 

[Twogunkid]

13 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

 

I don’t believe that comic is canon, even if it is it doesn’t necessarily prove that Shazam can beat Bill.

 

Bill has taken out Thor before, knocked him around and then he as smart enough to separate him from Mjornir and turn him back into human form. 
 

Storm breaker can absorb energy blasts, and has done so against Stardust and Silver Surfer, so I don’t think magic does much for Shazam.

Bill is a planet-buster on his own, and is strong enough to crack Galactus’ armor: https://m.imgur.com/JOnneL7

He can also tank blasts from Galactus: https://m.imgur.com/2oo1ZXj

 

He’s also fast enough to deal with Surfer, who is faster than Shazam.

 

Straight-up I think Bill has a higher strength, durability, and speed ceiling than Shazam. I also think he’s got a little more versatility with energy projection and absorption that should carry the day.

 

 

The cosmic egg from the end of JLA Avengers is a plot point in several DC comics later, so that one is canon. Sorry to Goldilocks, Blue Boy Scout is stronger.

Here he is many times faster than an electrical signal to launch fireworks

Gets Eclipso Supes to the Arctic before he can react

Can keep up with Flash

Power Girl accepts that Shazam is faster than her

Can catch Superman unaware

I'd say Billy more than has the speed he needs to get a win.

 

Tanks multiple bloodlusted leaguers instead of fighting back

Survives being turned inside out

Strength your thing? When sucker punching supes, two shots him

And fairly is portrayed as Superman's equal

Casually launches the helm of Fate into deep space

While mind controlled out pummels the Martian Manhunter (still sad on the draw)

 

 

 

 

[Magnamax]

43 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

The cosmic egg from the end of JLA Avengers is a plot point in several DC comics later, so that one is canon. Sorry to Goldilocks, Blue Boy Scout is stronger.

Here he is many times faster than an electrical signal to launch fireworks

Gets Eclipso Supes to the Arctic before he can react

Can keep up with Flash

Power Girl accepts that Shazam is faster than her

Can catch Superman unaware

I'd say Billy more than has the speed he needs to get a win.

 

Tanks multiple bloodlusted leaguers instead of fighting back

Survives being turned inside out

Strength your thing? When sucker punching supes, two shots him

And fairly is portrayed as Superman's equal

Casually launches the helm of Fate into deep space

While mind controlled out pummels the Martian Manhunter (still sad on the draw)

 

 

 

 

All good feats, but none of those match the speed of Surfer, or dwarf cracking Galactus’ armor.

 

Also, in that fight Superman states that Thor “might be the toughest he has ever faced” and is weakened to the point that he gets jumped a panel later. It’s also due to the fact that he’s “worthy” enough that he can catch a blow from Mjolnir that saves him in that fight.

[Magnamax]

Just thought: Beta Ray Bill has the same electricity and weather manipulation that Thor uses. Given that lighting bolts give Shazam his power (and him being able to get those lighting strikes down is usually a big turning point in fights against Superman) wouldn’t Bill being able to redirect lighting essentially end this fight?

 

Edit: looks like this did happen in the ‘96 crossover 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Magnamax
Research furthered

[Peypeypeypey]

16 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

Just thought: Beta Ray Bill has the same electricity and weather manipulation that Thor uses. Given that lighting bolts give Shazam his power (and him being able to get those lighting strikes down is usually a big turning point in fights against Superman) wouldn’t Bill being able to redirect lighting essentially end this fight?

 

Edit: looks like this did happen in the ‘96 crossover 

 

 

Do you have scans of that? That might make this a very quick fight

[Twogunkid]

12 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Do you have scans of that? That might make this a very quick fight

96' crossover was on fan votes. That one is not canon.

There is also no way Billy is not worthy.

I do have this one on canon though

 

[Magnamax]

18 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Do you have scans of that? That might make this a very quick fight

Here’s the quickest I can find, scroll through on it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.quirkybyte.com/blog/2020/07/thor-can-manipulate-shazams-lightning/amp/

[Magnamax]

8 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

96' crossover was on fan votes. That one is not canon.

There is also no way Billy is not worthy.

I do have this one on canon though

 

It stands to reason, given that Beta Ray Bill can manipulate magic and electricity/weather, that he would be able to use that against Billy. That is such a huge difference that it virtually ends the fight. 
 

And I think that fight proves that Superman can outlast Thor in a punching match. It doesn’t have much bearing here.

[Twogunkid]

4 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

It stands to reason, given that Beta Ray Bill can manipulate magic and electricity/weather, that he would be able to use that against Billy. That is such a huge difference that it virtually ends the fight. 
 

And I think that fight proves that Superman can outlast Thor in a punching match. It doesn’t have much bearing here.

Billy can manipulate magic too. Bloodlusted he steals Black Adam's powers.

and bloodlusted Billy is to be feared by gods. Thor types especially

[Magnamax]

22 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Billy can manipulate magic too. Bloodlusted he steals Black Adam's powers.

and bloodlusted Billy is to be feared by gods. Thor types especially

I don’t know the full context of him stealing Adam’s powers here. Reading what Adam is saying, it doesn’t seem like this is just normal Shazam.

 

Your second link isn’t just Shazam bloodlusted, it’s Dark Shazam. Basically, it’s “The Shazam Who Laughs,” and has been infected by The Batman Who Laughs. It’s a different character entirely.

[Twogunkid]

Just now, Magnamax said:

I don’t know the full context of him stealing Adam’s powers here. Reading what Adam is saying, it doesn’t seem like this is just normal Shazam.

 

Your second link isn’t just Shazam bloodlusted, it’s Dark Shazam. Basically, it’s “The Shazam Who Laughs,” and has been infected by The Batman Who Laughs. It’s a different character entirely.

It's just Billy infected by the Dark Metal. He's got the same powers. As for the first one, Shazam is mind controlled and wouldn't normally do such a thing, but he is capable of it.

[Peypeypeypey]

16 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

It's just Billy infected by the Dark Metal. He's got the same powers. As for the first one, Shazam is mind controlled and wouldn't normally do such a thing, but he is capable of it.

Isn't Dark Metal like a big boost though? And it makes him act different, right? I might be wrong, I haven't read all of those stories yet, but I thought the main thing about The Batman Who Laughs was that he was infected with Dark Metal

[Twogunkid]

6 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Isn't Dark Metal like a big boost though? And it makes him act different, right? I might be wrong, I haven't read all of those stories yet, but I thought the main thing about The Batman Who Laughs was that he was infected with Dark Metal

I have nothing one way or the other on that other than its jokerizing effect. My understanding was it was used to cut Shazam and infect him with Joker Venom

[Magnamax]

1 hour ago, Twogunkid said:

I have nothing one way or the other on that other than its jokerizing effect. My understanding was it was used to cut Shazam and infect him with Joker Venom

It causes him to behave way out of character and obviously augments the characters infected by that metal. The Batman Who Laughs is a multiversal threat when infected with this metal. The Dark Shazam feat just isn't a valid feat for a Shazam fact.

 

I think it's important in most Superman/Shazam feats that Superman is affected by the magic to an extent that he is more vulnerable. 

 

Beta Ray Bill  has better energy manipulation and can cripple Shazam's ability to use magic.

 

Shazam has been affected by other people's magic, Constantine was able to use his magic to revert Shazam, The Spectre was able to do the same. Through electric manipulation and magic redirection, he should be able to use hax to severely affect Billy Batson. If not just reverting him outright, it takes away a key weapon

[Twogunkid]

31 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

It causes him to behave way out of character and obviously augments the characters infected by that metal. The Batman Who Laughs is a multiversal threat when infected with this metal. The Dark Shazam feat just isn't a valid feat for a Shazam fact.

 

I think it's important in most Superman/Shazam feats that Superman is affected by the magic to an extent that he is more vulnerable. 

 

Beta Ray Bill  has better energy manipulation and can cripple Shazam's ability to use magic.

 

Shazam has been affected by other people's magic, Constantine was able to use his magic to revert Shazam, The Spectre was able to do the same. Through electric manipulation and magic redirection, he should be able to use hax to severely affect Billy Batson. If not just reverting him outright, it takes away a key weapon

Even if Shazam cannot use lightning, I think it unlikley BRB can just revert him. Spectre and Constantine are highly magical beings with a great deal of knowledge about it. Bill is a worthy alien mechanic, not a magician. Further, direct magical attacks like from Stormbreaker are going to have increased resistance just like Billy has versus the Spear of Destiny or mystic petrification.

Further Billy is known for his heart. He has been portrayed as the guy who is more of a boy scout than Superman. This guy will lecture the JLA when they go off the path. Guess what? Stormbreaker use is fair play for Billy and then the poor alien horse has no chance.

Billy is massively FTL and uses that as a means to reach the rock of eternity by going fast enough to time travel, consistently shown to be at Superman's level of strength and that is why the Thor feat is relevant because Supes overpowers Thor and Thor and BRB are directly comparable.

Also Batman Who Laughs Cosmic Threat Status comes from being a clone merged with Dr. Manhattan not Dark Metal.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Twogunkid
Batman who laughs clarification

[Magnamax]

7 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Even if Shazam cannot use lightning, I think it unlikley BRB can just revert him. Spectre and Constantine are highly magical beings with a great deal of knowledge about it. Bill is a worthy alien mechanic, not a magician. Further, direct magical attacks like from Stormbreaker are going to have increased resistance just like Billy has versus the Spear of Destiny or mystic petrification.

Further Billy is known for his heart. He has been portrayed as the guy who is more of a boy scout than Superman. This guy will lecture the JLA when they go off the path. Guess what? Stormbreaker use is fair play for Billy and then the poor alien horse has no chance.

Billy is massively FTL and uses that as a means to reach the rock of eternity by going fast enough to time travel, consistently shown to be at Superman's level of strength and that is why the Thor feat is relevant because Supes overpowers Thor and Thor and BRB are directly comparable.

Also Batman Who Laughs Cosmic Threat Status comes from being a clone merged with Dr. Manhattan not Dark Metal.

Big no on storm breaker use. Billy might be worthy in the right setting, but if they are in a Death match scenario, then it won’t be usable by him. In that JLA/Avengers crossover you referenced earlier, Superman tries lifting Mjolnir after the defeat Krona and can’t do it. Billy won’t be able to wield Stormbreaker.

 

Supes is stronger than Shazam, and consistently beats him head to head. Additionally, he doesn’t really overpower Thor, he gets a sucker punch in when Thor is surprised that Supes catches a hit from Mjolnir. And the way magic will work in this fight just makes it a different scenario. Beta Ray might have been a cyborg horse who is worthy, but he’s a very experienced magic user who is very good at manipulating weather and lightning. There’s no reason why he wouldn’t try blocking or hacking Billy’s lightning, which would give Bill a massive advantage.

 

Also, lol if that has been revealed as TBWL’s true origin. Where did they show that?  

[Twogunkid]

54 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

Big no on storm breaker use. Billy might be worthy in the right setting, but if they are in a Death match scenario, then it won’t be usable by him. In that JLA/Avengers crossover you referenced earlier, Superman tries lifting Mjolnir after the defeat Krona and can’t do it. Billy won’t be able to wield Stormbreaker.

 

Supes is stronger than Shazam, and consistently beats him head to head. Additionally, he doesn’t really overpower Thor, he gets a sucker punch in when Thor is surprised that Supes catches a hit from Mjolnir. And the way magic will work in this fight just makes it a different scenario. Beta Ray might have been a cyborg horse who is worthy, but he’s a very experienced magic user who is very good at manipulating weather and lightning. There’s no reason why he wouldn’t try blocking or hacking Billy’s lightning, which would give Bill a massive advantage.

 

Also, lol if that has been revealed as TBWL’s true origin. Where did they show that?  

I hatethe Batman who laughs. Just dumbest grimdark stuff already.

Fair warning this is dumb

 

[Twogunkid]

10 hours ago, Magnamax said:

Big no on storm breaker use. Billy might be worthy in the right setting, but if they are in a Death match scenario, then it won’t be usable by him. In that JLA/Avengers crossover you referenced earlier, Superman tries lifting Mjolnir after the defeat Krona and can’t do it. Billy won’t be able to wield Stormbreaker.

 

Supes is stronger than Shazam, and consistently beats him head to head. Additionally, he doesn’t really overpower Thor, he gets a sucker punch in when Thor is surprised that Supes catches a hit from Mjolnir. And the way magic will work in this fight just makes it a different scenario. Beta Ray might have been a cyborg horse who is worthy, but he’s a very experienced magic user who is very good at manipulating weather and lightning. There’s no reason why he wouldn’t try blocking or hacking Billy’s lightning, which would give Bill a massive advantage.

 

Also, lol if that has been revealed as TBWL’s true origin. Where did they show that?  

Full panel definitely shows Supes is no mere sucker punch

I'll throw some more Billy Strength feats for you

Puts Kalibak in a headlock casually

Catches a punch from bloodlusted Eclipso Supes

Can restrain Supes enough to think of an alternative to killing him

Breaks Lobo's chain

 

Throw in the Wisdom of Solomon granting him battle knowledge from 1000s of years and Billy has an edge there.

Yeah the metal also was just used to cut Shazam and poison him, so his god busting feats/going toe to toe with the World's Finest stand.

[Twogunkid]

Shazam is definitely worthy even in a fight like this. He was the only DC hero to stand up to Neron's powers in hill and be unaffected. He can wield the Spear of Destiny and not face temptation a feat he alone possesses.

Further the Specter and Constantine feats both stem from them knowing that saying Shazam can transform Billy Batson and Captain Marvel back and forth something BRB has no way of knowing.

Captain Marvel like Beta Ray Bill can command lightning and is immune to it, so both sides possessing lightning powers is a moot point. Billy's has expanded to total electrokinesis in recent years, so the edge is really going to him there.

In addition to being massively FTL, Shazam can teleport which is another thing Billy can do that Beta cannot.

[Magnamax]

35 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Shazam is definitely worthy even in a fight like this. He was the only DC hero to stand up to Neron's powers in hill and be unaffected. He can wield the Spear of Destiny and not face temptation a feat he alone possesses.

Further the Specter and Constantine feats both stem from them knowing that saying Shazam can transform Billy Batson and Captain Marvel back and forth something BRB has no way of knowing.

Captain Marvel like Beta Ray Bill can command lightning and is immune to it, so both sides possessing lightning powers is a moot point. Billy's has expanded to total electrokinesis in recent years, so the edge is really going to him there.

In addition to being massively FTL, Shazam can teleport which is another thing Billy can do that Beta cannot.

Teleportation is really moot in a fight like this. Again, Beta Ray Bill is fast enough to be fighting evenly with Silver Surfer, who is much faster than Captain Marvel.

Shazam isn’t worthy in the sense that he can use Beta Ray’s Stormbreaker when they are fighting. Again, Superman was unable to even lift Mjolnir in the JLA/Avengers crossover as soon as that fight was finished. Billy can’t use Stormbreaker.

 

The point is that Beta Ray Bill shows far more control and manipulation of lighting than Shazam. Nearly every time I see Shazam use lighting, it’s when he’s shouting down a bolt to AOE near him, all Bill has to is deflect that, and it could revert Shazam, or at the very least cripple his ability to use it, Shazam doesn’t have that same kind of control or has never shown it.

 

I also don’t think Shazam is immune to electric attacks, as Black Adam is his main adversary and uses those attacks. Here’s a scan: 

 

[Twogunkid]

2 hours ago, Magnamax said:

Teleportation is really moot in a fight like this. Again, Beta Ray Bill is fast enough to be fighting evenly with Silver Surfer, who is much faster than Captain Marvel.

Shazam isn’t worthy in the sense that he can use Beta Ray’s Stormbreaker when they are fighting. Again, Superman was unable to even lift Mjolnir in the JLA/Avengers crossover as soon as that fight was finished. Billy can’t use Stormbreaker.

 

The point is that Beta Ray Bill shows far more control and manipulation of lighting than Shazam. Nearly every time I see Shazam use lighting, it’s when he’s shouting down a bolt to AOE near him, all Bill has to is deflect that, and it could revert Shazam, or at the very least cripple his ability to use it, Shazam doesn’t have that same kind of control or has never shown it.

 

I also don’t think Shazam is immune to electric attacks, as Black Adam is his main adversary and uses those attacks. Here’s a scan: 

 

As seen by the blood coming from Bill's nose and the motion of Adam's hand the punch is what is doing the damage. . and here are some scans to back up that lightning is not harming Billy Part 1 Part 2 Part 3 (A Black Adam Moment but the same powers)

 

Billy's teleporting, wizardry, size changing, and conjuration are unlikely to be key powers but may provide an edge at a key moment.  Billy's speed is enough to keep up with Wally and fight with the likes of Superman. He is fast enough to travel out of time to reach the rock of eternity.

 

Billy is also very tactical and when faced with a superior wizard out plays him using electrokinesis he shorts out Mr. Mind's speaker.

Also together with Black Adam bests Superboy Prime (which totally is jobbing on Superboy Prime's part but...

And to the point that Billy couldn't take Storm breaker because this is a fight is silly. Look at the context of him welding Mjolnir The middle of a fight.