12:8 - Tamatoa vs. Claude Frollo (Disney)

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 8

Tamatoa

Slot: The Team's Disney Fairy Tale Villain
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Tamatoa at this Wiki
Official Site: Disney

Claude Frollo (Disney)

Slot: The Team's Disney Fairy Tale Villain
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Claude Frollo (Disney) at this Wiki
Official Site: Disney

Battle Terrain
Disney Villains: Turn Elsa to the dark side

[Culwych1]

A powerful being that resents others and lives away from the humans and others. That could easily apply to either Elsa or Tamatoa. They have a lot in common and I can even see a symmetry between ice and jewellery, which Tamatoa would take a shining to. 

I think Elsa would have a much harder time buying into Frollo's specific brand of religious feverish evil. 

Heck, there's even fan drawings about this duo:

[Peypeypeypey]

On the one hand, Tamatoa is far too selfish to want to train Elsa, I think. He's all about making things his and doesn't seem keen on working with anyone. On the other hand, Frollo is a religious fanatic who Elsa wouldn't really take a liking to.

Hmm

[Culwych1]

4 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

On the one hand, Tamatoa is far too selfish to want to train Elsa, I think. He's all about making things his and doesn't seem keen on working with anyone. On the other hand, Frollo is a religious fanatic who Elsa wouldn't really take a liking to.

Hmm

I feel like deep down, Tamatoa just wants a friend. I reckon Elsa wants the same. And then - they live happily ever after stealing from the rich in a underwater ice palace (or something like that). 😆

[Mercenaryblade]

Tamatoa has a disadvantage of being kind of an obvious villain. 

Frollo well he also seems like an obvious villain, but not as much as giant killer crab. 

[Culwych1]

7 minutes ago, Mercenaryblade said:

Tamatoa has a disadvantage of being kind of an obvious villain. 

Frollo well he also seems like an obvious villain, but not as much as giant killer crab. 

Hmmm, dunno. Tamatoa seems more interested in singing and shiny things, although admitadly he is a giant killer crab. Powerwise though, I can't see Elsa being that afraid of him - she could stop him in his tracks if she needed to. 

He is still a lot less creepy than ol' handsy leery Frollo I reckon. 

[Fox]

When Elsa leaves town she already seems to consider herself something of a 'monster'. She has powers that have harmed others and seen townsfolk react to her with fear.

That's just the right time for another monster, a kindred spirit such as Tamatoa to make an entrance and sing a number about embracing the dark side. Elsa would be open to that message.

Frollo just seems like the type of inquisitor who would prefer to burn Elsa at the stake - not assist her.

 

[Magnamax]

I think Frollo wins this because he is actually evil, unlike Tamatoa: who just seems greedy.

[leroypowell3]

42 minutes ago, Magnamax said:

I think Frollo wins this because he is actually evil, unlike Tamatoa: who just seems greedy.

Greed is one of the seven deadly sins homie. Orange Lantern anybody?

[Twogunkid]

27 minutes ago, leroypowell3 said:

Greed is one of the seven deadly sins homie. Orange Lantern anybody?

So are Lust and Pride which Frollo has in spades.

[Magnamax]

34 minutes ago, leroypowell3 said:

Greed is one of the seven deadly sins homie. Orange Lantern anybody?

Sure, but Tamatoa is in it for shiny things, Frollo is actually just evil. If we’re going by Seven Deadly sins then Frollo has: Lust, Pride, Envy, Wrath, and actually tries to corrupt people towards evil.

[Culwych1]

8 hours ago, Magnamax said:

Sure, but Tamatoa is in it for shiny things, Frollo is actually just evil. If we’re going by Seven Deadly sins then Frollo has: Lust, Pride, Envy, Wrath, and actually tries to corrupt people towards evil.

Evil is evil in my opinion, whatever degree. The setup doesn't say Elsa has to go full out take over the world or kill everyone evil.

There's just a lot more symmetry between Elsa and Tamatoa, and it just seems more likely they'll turn to the dark ways together as a team than her believing anything Frollo has to say.

[Mercenaryblade]

I had an epiphany regarding this match. 

The goal is turn Elsa to the darkside. Now most times in this scenario we tend to look at it one way, which is villain tries to befriend her.

But the goal isn't befriending her, it's turn her to the darkside. Frollo can do that without being her friend. He just needs to denounce her as a heretic and witch. Turn her subjects against her. The bitterness and anger will build in her like a poison. Until she crosses that line. So Frollo would win.  

[Culwych1]

5 minutes ago, Mercenaryblade said:

I had an epiphany regarding this match. 

The goal is turn Elsa to the darkside. Now most times in this scenario we tend to look at it one way, which is villain tries to befriend her.

But the goal isn't befriending her, it's turn her to the darkside. Frollo can do that without being her friend. He just needs to denounce her as a heretic and witch. Turn her subjects against her. The bitterness and anger will build in her like a poison. Until she crosses that line. So Frollo would win.  

Ah, you see - that's exactly where it would go wrong. 

Frollo convinces everyone she is a witch. They capture her and are going to burn her at the stake. A terrible mistake happens and the fire spreads through the entire town!

Elsa, seeing people in danger, manages to escape her bonds and uses her powers to stop the fire, saving all the children trapped in a school including the mayor's twin sons. 

She's suddenly a hero! Cue everyone's favourite heroic uplifting song and the mayor decrees her no longer a witch, and they all chase Frollo out of town for being such a weirdo. 

Roll credits. 

[Peypeypeypey]

18 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Ah, you see - that's exactly where it would go wrong. 

Frollo convinces everyone she is a witch. They capture her and are going to burn her at the stake. A terrible mistake happens and the fire spreads through the entire town!

Elsa, seeing people in danger, manages to escape her bonds and uses her powers to stop the fire, saving all the children trapped in a school including the mayor's twin sons. 

She's suddenly a hero! Cue everyone's favourite heroic uplifting song and the mayor decrees her no longer a witch, and they all chase Frollo out of town for being such a weirdo. 

Roll credits. 

...what

[Culwych1]

55 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

...what

Trying to showcase why the strategy of just denouncing her as a heretic and a witch wouldn't work.

To be fair, it hasn't worked too well for Frollo against someone without ice powers anyway.

[Mercenaryblade]

2 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

Ah, you see - that's exactly where it would go wrong. 

Frollo convinces everyone she is a witch. They capture her and are going to burn her at the stake. A terrible mistake happens and the fire spreads through the entire town!

Elsa, seeing people in danger, manages to escape her bonds and uses her powers to stop the fire, saving all the children trapped in a school including the mayor's twin sons. 

She's suddenly a hero! Cue everyone's favourite heroic uplifting song and the mayor decrees her no longer a witch, and they all chase Frollo out of town for being such a weirdo. 

Roll credits. 

Huh?

[Mercenaryblade]

50 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Trying to showcase why the strategy of just denouncing her as a heretic and a witch wouldn't work.

To be fair, it hasn't worked too well for Frollo against someone without ice powers anyway.

It worked well for him for a long time till Esmeralda. Man's whole career was forged on that.

Also having ice powers would just help his case more. Elsa freezes him and runs away in anger and pain, or accidentally kills/hurts someone. Even if he's dead he still won, she's gone dark.

Your scenario is just one of many possibilities and the least likely outcome.  

[Culwych1]

1 hour ago, Mercenaryblade said:

It worked well for him for a long time till Esmeralda. Man's whole career was forged on that.

Also having ice powers would just help his case more. Elsa freezes him and runs away in anger and pain, or accidentally kills/hurts someone. Even if he's dead he still won, she's gone dark.

Your scenario is just one of many possibilities and the least likely outcome.  

It was just an, obviously poor, attempt at a humorous way this attempt could fail. 

But it does seem a likely way that Frollo could go, although it certainly does not mean she will turn evil. I think the most likely outcome is like in the film, she runs away to live in isolation. That didn't mean she was evil. 

I guess a more obvious way is that the royal family could stop it? Can't really remember much about Frozen. 

[Pizzaguy2995]

3 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

Ah, you see - that's exactly where it would go wrong. 

Frollo convinces everyone she is a witch. They capture her and are going to burn her at the stake. A terrible mistake happens and the fire spreads through the entire town!

Elsa, seeing people in danger, manages to escape her bonds and uses her powers to stop the fire, saving all the children trapped in a school including the mayor's twin sons. 

She's suddenly a hero! Cue everyone's favourite heroic uplifting song and the mayor decrees her no longer a witch, and they all chase Frollo out of town for being such a weirdo. 

Roll credits. 

1 hour ago, Mercenaryblade said:

It worked well for him for a long time till Esmeralda. Man's whole career was forged on that.

Also having ice powers would just help his case more. Elsa freezes him and runs away in anger and pain, or accidentally kills/hurts someone. Even if he's dead he still won, she's gone dark.

Your scenario is just one of many possibilities and the least likely outcome.  

I personally think that Culwych is absolutely right. Come on Merc you can’t say that his scenario is one of the least possible outcomes when it has happened in two separate instances. Like the whole plot of Frozen was exactly as Culwych described, jerks like Duke Weselton and SPOILER ALERT Hans trying to convince the world that Elsa is a monster and turn them against her, yet Elsa’s love for her sister and her general kind personality shined through and the baddies were exposed and got what they deserved.

A very similar scenario happened in The Hunchback of Norte Dame also. Frollo tried to convince Quasimodo that he was a monster and that Esmeralda was a gypsy witch and yet ultimately the public turned against Frollo and Quasimodo and Esmeralda were ultimately accepted by the masses despite Frollo’s propaganda and fear mongering. 

Heck since this scenario features Disney characters it’ll likely take in a traditional Disney setting and you better believe that Culwych’s scenario is not only highly likely to happen but it’s practically status quo! Maybe in a more dark/realistic setting Merc’s dismissal might be justified but in a happy, idealistic world from the Mickey Mouse brand then I would think Frollo getting away with turning society against the clear misunderstood heroine is the least likely outcome.

Now that’s not to say that Tamatoa is the clear favorite here, the fact that he would likely try to eat Elsa would definitely make it hard to turn her to the dark side. So while it is hard to definitely say whether either villain could succeed here, I would lean ever so slightly in favor of Tamatoa because if he can just get past the whole trying to eat her phase then I think Elsa could identify with big T’s outsider status and ultimately learn from him to put herself first and develop a selfish streak that could lead her on the path of villainy.  

[Culwych1]

3 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

I personally think that Culwych is absolutely right. Come on Merc you can’t say that his scenario is one of the least possible outcomes when it has happened in two separate instances. Like the whole plot of Frozen was exactly as Culwych described, jerks like Duke Weselton and SPOILER ALERT Hans trying to convince the world that Elsa is a monster and turn them against her, yet Elsa’s love for her sister and her general kind personality shined through and the baddies were exposed and got what they deserved.

A very similar scenario happened in The Hunchback of Norte Dame also. Frollo tried to convince Quasimodo that he was a monster and that Esmeralda was a gypsy witch and yet ultimately the public turned against Frollo and Quasimodo and Esmeralda were ultimately accepted by the masses despite Frollo’s propaganda and fear mongering. 

Heck since this scenario features Disney characters it’ll likely take in a traditional Disney setting and you better believe that Culwych’s scenario is not only highly likely to happen but it’s practically status quo! Maybe in a more dark/realistic setting Merc’s dismissal might be justified but in a happy, idealistic world from the Mickey Mouse brand then I would think Frollo getting away with turning society against the clear misunderstood heroine is the least likely outcome.

Now that’s not to say that Tamatoa is the clear favorite here, the fact that he would likely try to eat Elsa would definitely make it hard to turn her to the dark side. So while it is hard to definitely say whether either villain could succeed here, I would lean ever so slightly in favor of Tamatoa because if he can just get past the whole trying to eat her phase then I think Elsa could identify with big T’s outsider status and ultimately learn from him to put herself first and develop a selfish streak that could lead her on the path of villainy.  

Finally! Someone who understands my gibberish 😆

[Mercenaryblade]

34 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

I personally think that Culwych is absolutely right. Come on Merc you can’t say that his scenario is one of the least possible outcomes when it has happened in two separate instances. Like the whole plot of Frozen was exactly as Culwych described, jerks like Duke Weselton and SPOILER ALERT Hans trying to convince the world that Elsa is a monster and turn them against her, yet Elsa’s love for her sister and her general kind personality shined through and the baddies were exposed and got what they deserved.

A very similar scenario happened in The Hunchback of Norte Dame also. Frollo tried to convince Quasimodo that he was a monster and that Esmeralda was a gypsy witch and yet ultimately the public turned against Frollo and Quasimodo and Esmeralda were ultimately accepted by the masses despite Frollo’s propaganda and fear mongering. 

Heck since this scenario features Disney characters it’ll likely take in a traditional Disney setting and you better believe that Culwych’s scenario is not only highly likely to happen but it’s practically status quo! Maybe in a more dark/realistic setting Merc’s dismissal might be justified but in a happy, idealistic world from the Mickey Mouse brand then I would think Frollo getting away with turning society against the clear misunderstood heroine is the least likely outcome.

Now that’s not to say that Tamatoa is the clear favorite here, the fact that he would likely try to eat Elsa would definitely make it hard to turn her to the dark side. So while it is hard to definitely say whether either villain could succeed here, I would lean ever so slightly in favor of Tamatoa because if he can just get past the whole trying to eat her phase then I think Elsa could identify with big T’s outsider status and ultimately learn from him to put herself first and develop a selfish streak that could lead her on the path of villainy.  

Given that this is the bad ending what if scenario we can assume the Disney happy endings are not existent here. Therefore of the two which is more likely to succeed? Given this is a bad AU, it's possible the incidents in the first two Frozen movies never happened. It's the which is more likely scenario. So Frollo a man of influence has a better chance of corrupting her not from friendship but setting others against her and turning her bitter.

So yes my dismissal of the usual Disney happiness is valid. 

[Pizzaguy2995]

26 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Finally! Someone who understands my gibberish 😆

Don’t worry pal, people say I speak gibberish too. 🤣

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Tamatoa: 5
Claude Frollo (Disney): 6