12:8 - Black Adam vs. Doctor Doom

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 8

Black Adam

Slot: The Team's Big Gun
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Black Adam at this Wiki
Official Site: D.C. Comics

Doctor Doom

Slot: The Team's Big Gun
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Doctor Doom at this Wiki
Official Site: Marvel Comics

Battle Terrain
Combat Terrain: Pandora Daytime

[C.T.]

This would be a real awesome fight to witness, between two like minded powerhouses, but I think Adam’s got enough to take it.

[Culwych1]

16 minutes ago, C.T. said:

This would be a real awesome fight to witness, between two like minded powerhouses, but I think Adam’s got enough to take it.

Awesome indeed.

There is no way that this doesn't end in Doom stealing BA's powers - they are powerful enough to draw his attention. 

Now, BA has the advantage of speed and strength, both of which wouldn't be enough to face Doom's shields, and then Doom just has to summon an army of demons and then steal his power.

Here is a summoning feat:

And here is just one of the many power steals - against someone who is comparable to Superman level strength and speed, and stood up to Thor

But the biggest point in Dooms favour is that Black Adams powers are based on magic. Doom is one of the most powerful sorcerors in comic book history. Here he casually steals a foes magic and adds it to his own..

 

[C.T.]

Nefaria’s made of literal energy though, it’s easier to absorb from him than most, and as for the shields, didn’t Sentry just get right through and rip his armor to pieces? I think that summoning pic might even be from the same comic. At least, I remember Doom summoning there

[Culwych1]

25 minutes ago, C.T. said:

Nefaria’s made of literal energy though, it’s easier to absorb from him than most, and as for the shields, didn’t Sentry just get right through and rip his armor to pieces? I think that summoning pic might even be from the same comic. At least, I remember Doom summoning there

Black Adams powers are magic and the other scan I showed how easily those were stripped away, so magic or energy, Black Adam is just going yo end up the same.

Sentry is on another level, his powers literally fluctuate constantly and he has casually shrugged off being destroyed completely by magic. Doom cast a spell on him and was surprised by it not working correctly because he is just so different. I don't actually enjoy reading Sentry comics because of how those are applied.

Regarding the summoning, he has done that a few times so it could be from a number of comics. In this case he could summon magic beings or Doombots.

 

[DSkillz]

Unlike other opponents Doom has faced and prepped for, Black Adam wouldn't mess around. He'd come right at Doom full force from the start, and, with both being randomly dropped onto the battlefield, Doom wouldn't have time to prep for this encounter. 

Just as a reminder of how terrifying Bladam can be, he once literally tore through the Spectre:  

Keep in mind that Spectre is generally among the last line of defense against multiversal threats. I seriously doubt Doom's shields are gonna hold up long against that. 

2 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

But the biggest point in Dooms favour is that Black Adams powers are based on magic. Doom is one of the most powerful sorcerors in comic book history. Here he casually steals a foes magic and adds it to his own..

Thing is, most of Doom's magical abilities were granted to him by the Hazareth Three, and they stripped him of those abilities when he angered them. So, he may not even have his more elaborate magic in this battle.

[Peypeypeypey]

The consensus I've always seen online, in fan forums, etc., is that Thor would body Doom unless Doom has a lot of prep-time. Doom does sometimes steal powers, but again, if it were something he could always do he would never lose. In fact, magic in Marvel is such that he needs prep time to use most spells. He has some ready no doubt, but I see no evidence that he would be able to steal someone's magic when it comes from a completely different universe, and therefore a completely different source. I see no evidence that he could steal, for example, Harry Potter's magic, because it's a completely different type of magic.

As you yourself admit, Black Adam is far fast and physically stronger than Doom, and he's going to be able to punch through his shields eventually. Doom's shields are far from invincible. Here's Ant-Man thoroughly defeating Doom. Here's the Invisible Woman tearing Doom apart. Yes, Doom survives the Hulk, but the Hulk at his absolute strongest is tier 4-B, and there's really no reason at all to assume he's at his strongest when he fought Doom. His shields are able to briefly survive hits from Celestials, but Doom loses that fight pretty much immediately so it doesn't mean anything. Black Adam is way too fast and way too strong. Doom's armor can and has been torn apart by far less, and I don't see any real evidence that he could even survive long enough to use most of his magic 

[Culwych1]

30 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

The consensus I've always seen online, in fan forums, etc., is that Thor would body Doom unless Doom has a lot of prep-time. Doom does sometimes steal powers, but again, if it were something he could always do he would never lose. In fact, magic in Marvel is such that he needs prep time to use most spells. He has some ready no doubt, but I see no evidence that he would be able to steal someone's magic when it comes from a completely different universe, and therefore a completely different source. I see no evidence that he could steal, for example, Harry Potter's magic, because it's a completely different type of magic.

As you yourself admit, Black Adam is far fast and physically stronger than Doom, and he's going to be able to punch through his shields eventually. Doom's shields are far from invincible. Here's Ant-Man thoroughly defeating Doom. Here's the Invisible Woman tearing Doom apart. Yes, Doom survives the Hulk, but the Hulk at his absolute strongest is tier 4-B, and there's really no reason at all to assume he's at his strongest when he fought Doom. His shields are able to briefly survive hits from Celestials, but Doom loses that fight pretty much immediately so it doesn't mean anything. Black Adam is way too fast and way too strong. Doom's armor can and has been torn apart by far less, and I don't see any real evidence that he could even survive long enough to use most of his magic 

Doom can teleport, and his shields as you say have stood up to Hulk, Thor, Celestials and more. Black Adam is not putting him down quickly, and then you have the one of the worlds greatest sorcerors, who can strip powers off other sorcerors without prep, against a man powered by magic...

And all that without going into the other possibilities, like his armour which has stopped Thor, his ability to swap bodies with enemies and more. 

And I'm sorry but I'm just not buying the whole "I've seen no evidence of him stealing magic if someone is from a different universe therefore he can't". I mean, the whole point of this is putting the two against each other like for like. That's like me saying I've never seen Black Adam use his powers against someone from Doom's universe therefore none of them work I'm afraid...

[Peypeypeypey]

Just now, Culwych1 said:

Doom can teleport, and his shields as you say have stood up to Hulk, Thor, Celestials and more. Black Adam is not putting him down quickly, and then you have the one of the worlds greatest sorcerors, who can strip powers off other sorcerors without prep, against a mam powered by magic...

And all that without going into the other possibilities, like his armour which has stopped Thor, his ability to swap bodies with enemies and more. 

And I'm sorry but I'm just not buying the whole "I've seen no evidence of him stealing magic if someone is from a different universe therefore he can't". I mean, the whole point is putting the two against each other like for like. That's like me saying I've never seen Black Adam use his powers against someone from Doom's universe therefore none of them work I'm afraid...

Again, the Hulk feat means very little. Hulk's strength ranges from tier 9 (being beaten up by Captain America) to Tier 4, so beating him really doesn't mean all that much. He's often used as a big jobber for Marvel, and because this fight didn't have a lot of collateral damage, it's hard to judge exactly how strong this Hulk is. I would say he's typically around tier 6, which means it's not at all impressive in this fight to survive that version of the Hulk.

When has his armor stopped Thor? His respect thread doesn't mention Thor at all as someone who he can block. Also, Black Adam is far faster than Thor, so he would have to contend with that as well. 

That last point is utterly nonsensical. Dr. Doom is able to steal power from people from his universe because his power comes from the same source/universe and he's more powerful than them, and he's prepped for them in some way. You can say that the feat above shows a "no prep" Doom, but that's not true at all. He had the prep to learn the spell he used against that woman, and there's simply no reason to assume that same spell would be able to syphon power from someone whose power comes from a different source. there's literally no reason to assume he can steal magic that comes from an entirely different power source. There's no reason to assume, for example, he could steal Naruto's Chakra, or a D&D Wizard's magic. And again, it's something he has done before, but it's definitely not his go-to move, and in this scenario, I don't think he would have the time to use it before Black Adam ruthlessly beats him down and destroys his armor. Doom's armor isn't invincible, and Black Adam is stronger than many people who have broken it before 

[DSkillz]

25 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Doom can teleport, and his shields as you say have stood up to Hulk, Thor, Celestials and more. Black Adam is not putting him down quickly, and then you have the one of the worlds greatest sorcerors, who can strip powers off other sorcerors without prep, against a man powered by magic...

And all that without going into the other possibilities, like his armour which has stopped Thor, his ability to swap bodies with enemies and more. 

Thing is, Black Adam has a much higher base strength than Hulk and will go for the kill from jump. He can also go at FTL speeds, so come to think of it, Doom may not even have the chance to even think of putting up shields, using magic, etc., before Teth tears him apart. 

[Culwych1]

19 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Again, the Hulk feat means very little. Hulk's strength ranges from tier 9 (being beaten up by Captain America) to Tier 4, so beating him really doesn't mean all that much. He's often used as a big jobber for Marvel, and because this fight didn't have a lot of collateral damage, it's hard to judge exactly how strong this Hulk is. I would say he's typically around tier 6, which means it's not at all impressive in this fight to survive that version of the Hulk.

When has his armor stopped Thor? His respect thread doesn't mention Thor at all as someone who he can block. Also, Black Adam is far faster than Thor, so he would have to contend with that as well. 

That last point is utterly nonsensical. Dr. Doom is able to steal power from people from his universe because his power comes from the same source/universe and he's more powerful than them, and he's prepped for them in some way. You can say that the feat above shows a "no prep" Doom, but that's not true at all. He had the prep to learn the spell he used against that woman, and there's simply no reason to assume that same spell would be able to syphon power from someone whose power comes from a different source. there's literally no reason to assume he can steal magic that comes from an entirely different power source. There's no reason to assume, for example, he could steal Naruto's Chakra, or a D&D Wizard's magic. And again, it's something he has done before, but it's definitely not his go-to move, and in this scenario, I don't think he would have the time to use it before Black Adam ruthlessly beats him down and destroys his armor. Doom's armor isn't invincible, and Black Adam is stronger than many people who have broken it before 

The Hulk scan was to show him teleporting, not taking a hit. 

In terms of stealing power, he has integrated most of the things that he can do - such as time travel and stealing powers - into his armour as follows: 

 

I have a feeling we are going to have to agree to disagree on that last point about absorbing magic. In my view magic is magic, and Strange or Doom's magic in DC would function the same as Shazam or Fate's magic in Marvel. And yes, I think if Doom suddenly crossed over with Harry Potter, he'd also be able to absorb that magic as he has that ability. 

 

 

[Culwych1]

6 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

Thing is, Black Adam has a much higher base strength than Hulk and will go for the kill from jump. He can also go at FTL speeds, so come to think of it, Doom may not even have the chance to even think of putting up shields, using magic, etc., before Teth tears him apart. 

Doom is able to put up his shields with a thought, and with just his armour withstood an atomic grenade, I am sure he can hold up long enough to put up his shields and then counter with a spell. 

[Culwych1]

1 hour ago, DSkillz said:

 

 

Pah, just one Spectre? Child's play 

[Peypeypeypey]

29 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

The Hulk scan was to show him teleporting, not taking a hit. 

In terms of stealing power, he has integrated most of the things that he can do - such as time travel and stealing powers - into his armour as follows: 

 

I have a feeling we are going to have to agree to disagree on that last point about absorbing magic. In my view magic is magic, and Strange or Doom's magic in DC would function the same as Shazam or Fate's magic in Marvel. And yes, I think if Doom suddenly crossed over with Harry Potter, he'd also be able to absorb that magic as he has that ability. 

 

 

Even if he could steal Black Adam's power, there's no reason to assume he could do it in this scenario. Show him stealing Thor's power without prep, or Beta Ray Bill, or some similar character, and maybe I'll buy it. Again, though, it's just not Doom's go-to move most of the time, much like the time travel scenario you suggested. He could maybe do it, but it's not how Doom fights 9 times out of 10. The question isn't "could Doom theoretically win," it's "who is more likely to win," and with that in mind, Black Adam is far faster and stronger than people who have broken through Doom's shields, and he's ruthless enough to crush Doom's armor like a tin can faster than Doom can really do anything.

28 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Doom is able to put up his shields with a thought, and with just his armour withstood an atomic grenade, I am sure he can hold up long enough to put up his shields and then counter with a spell. 

He may be able to put up shields with a thought, but people don't think at the speed of light. Even if he gets a shield up, again, I don't see consistent evidence that Doom's base shields are strong enough to survive hits from Black Adam. It's not just "taking Doom at his worst" either, it's taking him at his average. His shield briefly stood up to a Celestial, and to the Hulk, sure, but it also got broken by the Invisible Woman, Ant-Man, the Thing, and Luke Cage, so it's not ridiculous to think Black Adam could break the shield fairly quickly 

[DSkillz]

54 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

In terms of stealing power, he has integrated most of the things that he can do - such as time travel and stealing powers - into his armour as follows: 

Thing is, Doom was using his power stealing against entities he was fully prepared for and usually weren't trying to kill him off the bat. Black Adam has neither of these problems, and he's easily fast, strong, and bloodlusted enough to wreck Doom faster than Doom can think to use those abilities. 

50 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Doom is able to put up his shields with a thought, and with just his armour withstood an atomic grenade, I am sure he can hold up long enough to put up his shields and then counter with a spell. 

Heh, Black Adam can easily hit harder than an atomic explosion, and he'll have no compunctions on holding back to do so. 

He's gone toe-to-toe with Superman, who can also hit that hard, and there's never been a definitive winner between the two.

Adam also tore through several superhero teams in WW III:  

36 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Pah, just one Spectre? Child's play 

Heh, Spectre's the spirit of Vengeance for none other than the Presence, DC's version of the omnipotent God Himself. He's several steps up from a Celestial, and yet Adam literally flew through him.

 

[Culwych1]

1 minute ago, DSkillz said:

Heh, Spectre's the spirit of Vengeance for none other than the Presence, DC's version of the omnipotent God Himself. He's several steps up from a Celestial, and yet Adam literally flew through him.

 

Yeah, I know - that was a bit of a joke scan. 

[Culwych1]

17 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Even if he could steal Black Adam's power, there's no reason to assume he could do it in this scenario. Show him stealing Thor's power without prep, or Beta Ray Bill, or some similar character, and maybe I'll buy it. Again, though, it's just not Doom's go-to move most of the time, much like the time travel scenario you suggested. He could maybe do it, but it's not how Doom fights 9 times out of 10. The question isn't "could Doom theoretically win," it's "who is more likely to win," and with that in mind, Black Adam is far faster and stronger than people who have broken through Doom's shields, and he's ruthless enough to crush Doom's armor like a tin can faster than Doom can really do anything.

He may be able to put up shields with a thought, but people don't think at the speed of light. Even if he gets a shield up, again, I don't see consistent evidence that Doom's base shields are strong enough to survive hits from Black Adam. It's not just "taking Doom at his worst" either, it's taking him at his average. His shield briefly stood up to a Celestial, and to the Hulk, sure, but it also got broken by the Invisible Woman, Ant-Man, the Thing, and Luke Cage, so it's not ridiculous to think Black Adam could break the shield fairly quickly 

Again, to answer both your and @DSkillz on this, I would say that Doom is both "more likely to win" and "could theoretically win". We can disagree about what he "usually" does, but this is not a usual situation. He usually terrifies the *&$* out of groups of heroes on a daily basis, rather than getting dropped into a random jungle against someone - so we have to use what he can do.

Doom is a supergenius who's mind has been compared to a supercomputer.

1. We have shows that he can tank initial hits, having taken multiple hits from Celestials

2. Then all he has to do is use the time travel ability in his armour (as per the scan) to stop or travel back and then he has enough prep.

3. We have shown that his magic, and with prep, he can steal the powers of beings whether magic or not. 

It wouldn't take him long to figure out that would be his means of winning this - heck I've posted it and I'm definitely not a genius. I'm debating on a forum about superheroes when I should be completing a strategy paper, so I'm barely even smart - so Doom should definitely have no problem. 

And as a final parting power which would also work: Doom could just switch minds with Black Adam, which he has done against multipe opponents: 

[DSkillz]

26 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

-cut-

And again, Black Adam is a literal FTL planet-buster with no compunctions on holding back. He could finish Doom before any thoughts of attacking could come to Doom's mind.

[C.T.]

 

I can very well see Black Adam doing the same here, especially with this being Sentry when he was just standard flying brick and not the whole molecular manipulation/reality warping craziness he got into later. 

[Culwych1]

20 minutes ago, C.T. said:

 

I can very well see Black Adam doing the same here, especially with this being Sentry when he was just standard flying brick and not the whole molecular manipulation/reality warping craziness he got into later. 

To put that into context, that was Sentry and a whole crew of avengers having already engaged Doom and hit him a few times with everything they had. He was fighting about 5 off at the time and Sentry got him. This is Sentry with "the power of a thousand exploding suns" who is far from a standard flying brick. If he hadn't stepped in, Doom would have wiped out the rest of the Avengers and he was on the brink of killing Ironman.

A good example however in support of Doom being able to tank what Black Adam can throw at him initially whilst he figures out how to beat him.

[Peypeypeypey]

7 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

To put that into context, that was Sentry and a whole crew of avengers having already engaged Doom and hit him a few times with everything they had. He was fighting about 5 off at the time and Sentry got him. This is Sentry with "the power of a thousand exploding suns" who is far from a standard flying brick. If he hadn't stepped in, Doom would have wiped out the rest of the Avengers and he was on the brink of killing Ironman.

A good example however in support of Doom being able to tank what Black Adam can throw at him initially whilst he figures out how to beat him.

It's also a great example of Doom not using his time machine, or body swapping, or any of the other powers to stop himself from losing a fight he clearly lost. 

[Culwych1]

3 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

It's also a great example of Doom not using his time machine, or body swapping, or any of the other powers to stop himself from losing a fight he clearly lost. 

But the fact remains that he could use them against Black Adam in the fight we are talking about now. 

[Peypeypeypey]

2 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

But the fact remains that he could use them against Black Adam in the fight we are talking about now. 

I feel like we're just going in circles. Could he? Maybe. Would he? Almost certainly not, going by his fight record in the comics

[Culwych1]

20 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I feel like we're just going in circles. Could he? Maybe. Would he? Almost certainly not, going by his fight record in the comics

I think we are going in circles, and maybe I'm not getting it.

They are powers he has... that he has used... in comics... in fights...to win...

I feel like we're getting to a point where we could say, hang on, Superman didn't use his heat vision against Lex Luthor in that one fight, and therefore he won't use it in this one. And of course, we could add that it may not work against someone from a different universe anyway.

 

[Peypeypeypey]

19 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

I think we are going in circles, and maybe I'm not getting it.

They are powers he has... that he has used... in comics... in fights...to win...

I feel like we're getting to a point where we could say, hang on, Superman didn't use his heat vision against Lex Luthor in that one fight, and therefore he won't use it in this one. And of course, we could add that it may not work against someone from a different universe anyway.

 

It's actually the exact opposite of your Superman example. You have a handful of examples of him using his powers in that specific way, but the vast majority of the time he doesn't use those powers, either because he needs prep time for them, or because he didn't think to use it, or because it's not something he can willingly do at will, etc. It's not just "Doom didn't use it once, so he loses." It's more like "Whenever Doom is in a scenario where it would make perfect sense for him to use his power, he doesn't so it's not likely he would use it here." 

The "someone from a different universe" thing is getting absurd. My point is very simple: Magic has very different rules in Dc and in Marvel, so saying that someone can steal a DC character's magic just because they can steal a Marvel character's magic doesn't really make sense. Doom can steal someone's power because he exists in their universe and therefore understands how magic works in their universe. He uses this knowledge to steal their power. Black Adam's source of power is a completely different source than Doom's. Just because both are called "magic" in their universe doesn't mean they're the same thing. Obviously, physical damage exists the same in both universes. Again, Doom can steal people's power because he understands Marvel magic and can syphon it from people. He has no experience with DC's magic, so there's absolutely 0 reason to assume that, just because both are called magic, he'll be able to steal Black Adam's power.