12:9 - Jem'Hadar vs. Reapers

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 9

Jem'Hadar

Slot: The Team's Planetary Invasion Force
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Jem'Hadar at this Wiki
Official Site: star trek

Reapers

Slot: The Team's Planetary Invasion Force
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Reapers at this Wiki
Official Site: BioWare

Battle Terrain
Alien Invasion: Battleground planet Earth

[Mercenaryblade]

Once again Mass Effect weapons are laughably primitive to Trek shields.

And JemHadar have nastier ships and weapons than most the Alpha quadrant species. You thought Romulans were bad? This will be far worse, the early part of the dominion war had Jem'Hadar weaponry going right through shields. 

[Peypeypeypey]

If by "Simultaneous Earth Invasion," it means the Jem'Hadar aren't allowed to use their ships, then the Reaper ground forces could probably win. Otherwise they lose

[Twogunkid]

As was pointed out repeatedly ME shields do not work on the same principles as Star Trek shields. ME shields are kinetic and so are more likely to be effective against the Polaron beams. Further as I pointed out the Reapers have horrific victory on the ground. They absolutely curb stomp anyone in a standard fight on ground level as their troops are loaded with biotic powers, shields, and various other hax abilities. The battle is also on Earth not over it. So even if Dominion fighters are superior (they aren't) the Reapers have this.

[leroypowell3]

Fierce as the Jem Hadar are, surface-wise the Reapers will kill them. Not slaughter but the Jem Hedar will not win. 

I'm going with a surface battle because both characters can operate there and I like to use the scenario that produces the best fight. 

They could battle over the Earth where Jem Hadar ships would  do much better but they'd have to touch down sometime and surviving Reapers will turn it around.

[Twogunkid]

If I wanted to get really pedantic Dominion fighters are captained by Vorta or Founders and since the Dominion is a separate entry in this category...

 

I won't, but it seems odd that we basically allowed the same entry twice.

[RiotGear]

12 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

As was pointed out repeatedly ME shields do not work on the same principles as Star Trek shields. ME shields are kinetic and so are more likely to be effective against the Polaron beams. Further as I pointed out the Reapers have horrific victory on the ground. They absolutely curb stomp anyone in a standard fight on ground level as their troops are loaded with biotic powers, shields, and various other hax abilities. The battle is also on Earth not over it. So even if Dominion fighters are superior (they aren't) the Reapers have this.

Polaron Beams are largely directed energy weapons. 

That seemed capable of punching through navigational deflectors on Federation ships. 

Said navigational deflectors are designed specifically to stop kinetic impact while at warp. Though they are also effective against energy weapons. 

Point is between them being largely energy based and having already proven themselves against kinetic barrier like shields, and armor/whole plating. 

Reaper shields are going to do little to nothing in terms of stopping the Jem'Hadar's polaron Beams. 

Nor will Reaper shields block transporters. If the Jem'Hadar choose to engage in boarding actions.

As for ground combat. 

The Jem'Hadar may not have "biotic powers", but they are genetically engineered for war with a number of "hax" abilities of there own from cloaking/shrouding to super strength and endurance etc. 

They also steam rolled the alpha Quadrant powers on the ground. 

Including groups that are telepathic, super strong, super fast, super smart etc.

And who employ all manner of ground combat equipment. 

Including fighter craft, drones, armored vehicles, personal force fields, grenades, mortars, shoulder launchers, personal cloaks etc. 

We don't really see true ground combat engagements in Star Trek. It was not the focus or in the budget. 

The glimpses of it we do see though. Suggest that the Alpha Quadrant powers are as well equiped as the ground forces of other Sci-Fi factions who focus more on ground combat. 

And the Jem'Hadar cut through them all like a hot knife through butter. 

I just can't see the Reapers doing much better against them. Even with fancy hax abilities.

[Pizzaguy2995]

I played Mass Effect 3 and know for a fact that the Jem’Hadar don’t stand a chance in a ground battle. Seriously y’all vote the Reapers, they really should have beat the Romulans last match if I’m being honest.

[Twogunkid]

10 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Polaron Beams are largely directed energy weapons. 

That seemed capable of punching through navigational deflectors on Federation ships. 

Said navigational deflectors are designed specifically to stop kinetic impact while at warp. Though they are also effective against energy weapons. 

Point is between them being largely energy based and having already proven themselves against kinetic barrier like shields, and armor/whole plating. 

Reaper shields are going to do little to nothing in terms of stopping the Jem'Hadar's polaron Beams. 

Nor will Reaper shields block transporters. If the Jem'Hadar choose to engage in boarding actions.

As for ground combat. 

The Jem'Hadar may not have "biotic powers", but they are genetically engineered for war with a number of "hax" abilities of there own from cloaking/shrouding to super strength and endurance etc. 

They also steam rolled the alpha Quadrant powers on the ground. 

Including groups that are telepathic, super strong, super fast, super smart etc.

And who employ all manner of ground combat equipment. 

Including fighter craft, drones, armored vehicles, personal force fields, grenades, mortars, shoulder launchers, personal cloaks etc. 

We don't really see true ground combat engagements in Star Trek. It was not the focus or in the budget. 

The glimpses of it we do see though. Suggest that the Alpha Quadrant powers are as well equiped as the ground forces of other Sci-Fi factions who focus more on ground combat. 

And the Jem'Hadar cut through them all like a hot knife through butter. 

I just can't see the Reapers doing much better against them. Even with fancy hax abilities.

They steamrolled Alpha Quadrant Space forces due to a numerical advantage from breeding soldiers.  Early on the Polaron beam was a major advantage but that was dealt with and it became a numbers game. In the situations we see the Jem'hadar fight in even circumstances (Jem'hadar vs Worf in prison, the Seige of AR-558, Rocks and Shoals) The fights are pretty much even.

[RiotGear]

18 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

They steamrolled Alpha Quadrant Space forces due to a numerical advantage from breeding soldiers.  Early on the Polaron beam was a major advantage but that was dealt with and it became a numbers game. In the situations we see the Jem'hadar fight in even circumstances (Jem'hadar vs Worf in prison, the Seige of AR-558, Rocks and Shoals) The fights are pretty much even.

Every military power was openly afraid of facing the Jem'Hadar on the ground. 

It was discussed at length how they were near perfect soldiers. 

It was pretty clear that even soldier to soldier there were better. 

Under normal circumstances.  

To your examples. 

Worf is a Klingon. A species that is built and bred for war and fighting. Both anatomically and culturally. 

We are talking about a people with reinforced bones, redundant organs, the strength to lift and throw grown men with one arm. That come from a society that values personal combat prowess above almost anything else. 

And Worf has proven himself top tier even among the Klingons. 

So him fighting Jem'Hadar is hardly a knock against them. 

Also note this was face to face fist fights. So the Jem'Hadar. Couldn't make use of there stealth abilities. 

In AR-558 the Jem'Hadar were assaulting a fortified position. Typically to successfully do this with a light infantry force, which is what they had left. You need considerably more troops then the defenders. Which they didn't have. The fact that the Jem'Hadar were as successful as they were actually speaks to there ability in combat.

In "Rocks and Shoals" the Jem'Hadar force was under dubious leadership at best and suffering from withdrawals from not having enough ketracel-white. Which they need to live. 

In essence those Jem'Hadar were starving, detoxing, and in need of life sustaining medicine. Still as you mentioned they were giving as good as they were getting, before the afore mentioned leadership essentially sacrificed them.

[Twogunkid]

4 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Every military power was openly afraid of facing the Jem'Hadar on the ground. 

It was discussed at length how they were near perfect soldiers. 

It was pretty clear that even soldier to soldier there were better. 

Under normal circumstances.  

To your examples. 

Worf is a Klingon. A species that is built and bred for war and fighting. Both anatomically and culturally. 

We are talking about a people with reinforced bones, redundant organs, the strength to lift and throw grown men with one arm. That come from a society that values personal combat prowess above almost anything else. 

And Worf has proven himself top tier even among the Klingons. 

So him fighting Jem'Hadar is hardly a knock against them. 

Also note this was face to face fist fights. So the Jem'Hadar. Couldn't make use of there stealth abilities. 

In AR-558 the Jem'Hadar were assaulting a fortified position. Typically to successfully do this with a light infantry force, which is what they had left. You need considerably more troops then the defenders. Which they didn't have. The fact that the Jem'Hadar were as successful as they were actually speaks to there ability in combat.

In "Rocks and Shoals" the Jem'Hadar force was under dubious leadership at best and suffering from withdrawals from not having enough ketracel-white. Which they need to live. 

In essence those Jem'Hadar were starving, detoxing, and in need of life sustaining medicine. Still as you mentioned they were giving as good as they were getting, before the afore mentioned leadership essentially sacrificed them.

Alright what about the Magnificent Ferengi where a bunch of Ferengi outplay and then defeat the Jem'hadar?

[RiotGear]

9 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Alright what about the Magnificent Ferengi where a bunch of Ferengi outplay and then defeat the Jem'hadar?

Couple of things. 

First off the Ferengi are deceptively strong. Two of them took down Data an Android the can hold back a speeding car with one arm, Quarks body was able to grapple with Klingons even if Worf was controlling his movements ( It was still Quarks muscles doing the work ), and in Magnificent Ferengi. Leck was able to lodge a throwing knife in a metal wall. 

Ferengi also have incredible hearing and are resistant to telepathy. 

My point here is that when focused they actually make decent soldiers. 

Still Leck an assassin and Nog a trained Starfleet security officer were not really on par with the Jem'Hadar. 

Secondly all of this is beside the point as in "Magnificent Ferengi" they ran multiple simulations of the rescue on the holosuite. 

The Ferengi lost all of them decisively. There victory in the end was more about being better negotiators, not soldiers. Even then it was largely dumb luck a hail Mary pass if you will. 

The episode itself through the above mentioned simulations. Makes it obvious the Ferengi should have gotten mulched and in a straight up battle they would have. 

The simulated Jem'Hadar killed them casually.

[Twogunkid]

The Jem'Hadar when not being used as canon fodder face several problems with an Earth Invasion that the Reapers do not possess.

 

One: In any prolonged battle, Ketrocel White is a serious supply issue.

Two: In any prolonged battle, the Jem'hadar will not be increasing their numbers the way the Reapers will be. Between Indoctrination and Dragon's Teeth the Reaper forces are replenished by Human and Jem'hadar alike.

Three: Jem'hadar, while they do have a leadership structure at a unit level, akin to Sergeants and NCOs are not the actual combat leaders of the Dominion but the grunts. There are no Vorta or Founders leading them and so your Jem''hadar forces are leaderless. Reapers, while operating in a way alien to us, do have a command structure from the Reapers down to their various minions. Individual squads of Jem'hadar may have leaders, but there is no vision for a battle, a front, or a theatre, let alone any of the campaigns throughout Earth.

Four: Heavy ground vehicles/heavy weapons/fortified positions are far less of an issue for the Reapers than the Jem'hadar. The Jem'hadar lack that edge and a purely infantry force will struggle in. Reapers are a heavy weapon/armored vehicle/fortified position all in one. The Reaper ships through use of Eezo can land on the surface of Earth no problem and provide heavy support for their troops in a way that Star Trek vessels struggle with. The Defiant in the episode Starship Down struggles in atmosphere. 

That also ignores the invaluable edge biotics will provide in those scenarios.

 

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Jem'Hadar: 6
Reapers: 7

[Twogunkid]

Another close one.