12:11 - Shan Yu vs. Madam Mim

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 11

Shan Yu

Slot: The Team's Disney Fairy Tale Villain
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Shan Yu at this Wiki
Official Site: Disney

Madam Mim

Slot: The Team's Disney Fairy Tale Villain
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Madam Mim at this Wiki
Official Site: Disney

Battle Terrain
Disney Villains: Turn Elsa to the dark side

[Peypeypeypey]

I actually don't know that either of these would be very good at this. Mim is a bit too cartoonishly evil to successfully turn anyone I think, and she's not especially smart or conniving. Shan Yu, similarly, is much more interested in taking power for himself. Tough one

[Mercenaryblade]

I don't see a warlord being to successful in this challenge.

Mim though, has magic herself and could pass herself off as an understanding grandmotherly type. She's also a master of disguise, which I think she could also use to bring Elsa closer to the dark.

[Pizzaguy2995]

As I mentioned in another round I think Elsa more then anything wants to understand how to control and use her powers, so I think she’d be highly susceptible to someone magical who claims they could help her control them. I think Mim could pull that card out and play it well enough. 
 

[DSkillz]

Aside from her powerful magic, Mim revels in anything evil. I have a feeling that she would jump at the chance to turn someone with Elsa's abilities.

[leroypowell3]

Like your saying Elsa in interestted in controling her powers. Shan Yu could see her potetion and find her very useful. He could definately train her and his strong leadership would be impressive to her. That's how he could win this. 

[Twogunkid]

I actually like Shan Yu on this one. Mim is a bit over the top to do anything, but Shan Yu is a conqueror. He is going to be practical and as a leader of a (psuedo) nation, he is at least on a somewhat equal footing to interact with Elsa.

[DSkillz]

^^Y'all trying so hard.  

From what I've seen of Shan Yu, he's actually much more brutish than manipulative. The only people I've seen Yu convince to willingly do anything are his own Hun soldiers, and considering the Hun all seemed so like-mindedly thuggish in the film anyway, it likely wasn't a tough sell for him. 

Meanwhile, I could see more manipulating potential in Mim. She has convinvcing turned herself into a beautiful maiden. Since Mim also loves to see evil and despair, I think she'd pretty motivated to take someone with Elsa's potentially destructive freezing capabilities under her wing. 

With some restraint, Mim certainly has a shot to pull this off. In fact, it might make a good crossover event, like Disney likes to do every now and then. 

[Peypeypeypey]

38 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

^^Y'all trying so hard.  

From what I've seen of Shan Yu, he's actually much more brutish than manipulative. The only people I've seen Yu convince to willingly do anything are his own Hun soldiers, and considering the Hun all seemed so like-mindedly thuggish in the film anyway, it likely wasn't a tough sell for him. 

Meanwhile, I could see more manipulating potential in Mim. She has convinvcing turned herself into a beautiful maiden. Since Mim also loves to see evil and despair, I think she'd pretty motivated to take someone with Elsa's potentially destructive freezing capabilities under her wing. 

With some restraint, Mim certainly has a shot to pull this off. In fact, it might make a good crossover event, like Disney likes to do every now and then. 

They don't call her "Mad Madam Mim" because she's angry lol. She's off her rocker. She's not one to manipulate or trick, or slowly corrupt. She hates Merlin's use of magic and tries to kill him for it. Madam Mim isn't good for this challenge at all

[DSkillz]

37 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

They don't call her "Mad Madam Mim" because she's angry lol. She's off her rocker. She's not one to manipulate or trick, or slowly corrupt. She hates Merlin's use of magic and tries to kill him for it. Madam Mim isn't good for this challenge at all

I'd say she has a good chance at this. Mim hates Merlin's magic because she sees him actively using it for good. Once she sees a much younger and less-experienced Elsa unsure of whether to use her powers for good or evil, Mim may want to try to nuture her talents to cause as much chaos and destruction as possible. Besides, someone that's apparently been using magic as long as Mim would surely have an idea of when to restrain her more ... eccentric ways for this task. 

 

[Peypeypeypey]

Just now, DSkillz said:

I'd say she has a good chance at this. Mim hates Merlin's magic because she sees him actively using it for good. Once she sees a much younger and less-experienced Elsa unsure of whether to use her powers for good or evil, Mim may want to try to nuture her talents to cause as much chaos and destruction as possible. Besides, someone that's apparently been using magic as long as Mim would surely have an idea of when to restrain her more ... eccentric ways for this task. 

First, she's called Mad. She's not known for reigning in her ecccentricity.

More importantly though, Elsa is never conflicted about using her powers for good or for evil. She never thinks of using them for evil, She's just conflicted about hiding her powers vs. Not hiding them. She is very much a good person who just loses control. Mim's pure evil is a very bad manner to try to convince people to her side

[DSkillz]

56 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

First, she's called Mad. She's not known for reigning in her ecccentricity.

More importantly though, Elsa is never conflicted about using her powers for good or for evil. She never thinks of using them for evil, She's just conflicted about hiding her powers vs. Not hiding them. She is very much a good person who just loses control. Mim's pure evil is a very bad manner to try to convince people to her side

Again, I seriously doubt Mim's merely morphed into various creatures and people just for giggles or to kill things on the spot. It's probable she's also used her transformations and other magic to manipulate others at some point. Considering Mim is pure evil, she'd realize that manipulating others is one way to induce evil acts. 

[Twogunkid]

8 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

Again, I seriously doubt Mim's merely morphed into various creatures and people just for giggles or to kill things on the spot. It's probable she's also used her transformations and other magic to manipulate others at some point. Considering Mim is pure evil, she'd realize that manipulating others is one way to induce evil acts. 

Speculation and not something we've seen in the film. Considering she looses it at sunshine, I don't see her being able to mask her emotions very well.

[DSkillz]

1 hour ago, Twogunkid said:

Speculation and not something we've seen in the film. Considering she looses it at sunshine, I don't see her being able to mask her emotions very well.

The solution for that would be simple: only approach Elsa at night or in otherwise darkened settings.

Meanwhile, Shan's attempts at "manipulation" would likely amount to him trying to intimidate Elsa via physical force. That would not be wise to do with someone of her vast freezing abilities, especially with Yu's already-intimidating appearance. At the very least, Mim could disguise herself as something more approachable and maybe use some suggestive magic to sway Elsa.

[Peypeypeypey]

3 hours ago, DSkillz said:

The solution for that would be simple: only approach Elsa at night or in otherwise darkened settings.

Madam Mim isn't a vampire though, and Elsa isn't nocturnal. It's not just speculation to say that Mim "used her transformations to manipulate others," it completely contradicts what we actually see her do in the movie. She uses her transformations exclusively to try to kill people, and she tries to kill Arthur basically as soon as she meets him because of his relation to Merlin's Good magic. Mim isn't smart or conniving, she's cartoonishly evil and single-minded. She would suck at this challenge

[Pizzaguy2995]

15 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Madam Mim isn't a vampire though, and Elsa isn't nocturnal. It's not just speculation to say that Mim "used her transformations to manipulate others," it completely contradicts what we actually see her do in the movie. She uses her transformations exclusively to try to kill people, and she tries to kill Arthur basically as soon as she meets him because of his relation to Merlin's Good magic. Mim isn't smart or conniving, she's cartoonishly evil and single-minded. She would suck at this challenge

Well by that logic saying Shan Yu would be any better at this challenge would be completely contradicting what we saw in the movie. I know nowadays he’s seen as some sort of master strategist, ala Genghis Khan, but what real strategy did he actually employ on screen?

When his falcon brought him info about the main Chinese army (led by Shang’s daddy) waiting for him at some mountain pass instead of listening to his archer and outflanking the opposing army and taking the unprotected capital, he chose to meet his waiting and ready enemy head on because it was faster and because he wanted to butcher the nearby village. Also when his army was decimated by an avalanche, curtesy of Mulan, did he retreat back to his homeland and rebuild his army? No, he decided that he and his five men were just gonna kidnap the Emperor and barricade themselves in the capital palace. Um did he really think that six men were gonna be able to hold that place for long? Like what was even his main plan at that point?

Sorry but in my opinion Shan Yu was a bloodthirsty brute who approached warfare like an anxiety teenager playing GTA: no strategy, no thinking ahead, he just wanted to have fun killing and pillaging until he was inevitable wasted. The guy sounds like he’s more unhinged then Madam Mim!

Mim is no doubt mad, but their’s at least some rhyme and reason to it: with Arthur she was at least somewhat friendly and sociable, if a little eccentric, and only tried to kill him when she realized he was very important to Merlin. Shan Yu massacred a whole village of innocent people even when his men told him it’d be smarter not to! So as long as Elsa isn’t involved with Merlin I think she’ll be fine with Mim. Shan Yu might just try to kill her cause he’s bored.

[Peypeypeypey]

48 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Well by that logic saying Shan Yu would be any better at this challenge would be completely contradicting what we saw in the movie. I know nowadays he’s seen as some sort of master strategist, ala Genghis Khan, but what real strategy did he actually employ on screen?

When his falcon brought him info about the main Chinese army (led by Shang’s daddy) waiting for him at some mountain pass instead of listening to his archer and outflanking the opposing army and taking the unprotected capital, he chose to meet his waiting and ready enemy head on because it was faster and because he wanted to butcher the nearby village. Also when his army was decimated by an avalanche, curtesy of Mulan, did he retreat back to his homeland and rebuild his army? No, he decided that he and his five men were just gonna kidnap the Emperor and barricade themselves in the capital palace. Um did he really think that six men were gonna be able to hold that place for long? Like what was even his main plan at that point?

Sorry but in my opinion Shan Yu was a bloodthirsty brute who approached warfare like an anxiety teenager playing GTA: no strategy, no thinking ahead, he just wanted to have fun killing and pillaging until he was inevitable wasted. The guy sounds like he’s more unhinged then Madam Mim!

Mim is no doubt mad, but their’s at least some rhyme and reason to it: with Arthur she was at least somewhat friendly and sociable, if a little eccentric, and only tried to kill him when she realized he was very important to Merlin. Shan Yu massacred a whole village of innocent people even when his men told him it’d be smarter not to! So as long as Elsa isn’t involved with Merlin I think she’ll be fine with Mim. Shan Yu might just try to kill her cause he’s bored.

I want to be clear that I don't think either of them would do well, as I said in my first post. One is cartoonishly evil and wouldn't want to/be able to play the long game of corrupting Elsa, but the other is a megalomaniac who murders basically everything he sees. If he were even a slightly more in-depth villain, he might be able to reign in his violent tendencies, but as is, I don't think either of them really deserves a vote

[DSkillz]

17 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Madam Mim isn't a vampire though, and Elsa isn't nocturnal.

That's not even close to the point I was trying to make, lol. 

My point is that, seeing the destructive potential in Elsa, and knowing how much she revels in seeing evil done, there's a good chance Mim would try to do whether it takes to try to sway Elsa, even if that includes reigning herself in. 

Besides, being a fellow magic user, Mim can at least offer to mentor Elsa in better controlling her abilities. This is something Shan Yu can't do.

2 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Sorry but in my opinion Shan Yu was a bloodthirsty brute who approached warfare like an anxiety teenager playing GTA: no strategy, no thinking ahead, he just wanted to have fun killing and pillaging until he was inevitable wasted. The guy sounds like he’s more unhinged then Madam Mim!

Haven't seen Mulan in full, but from the glimpses I caught of Shan Yu in the film, I got this impression of him as well. I have played through Mulan's world in Kingdom Hearts II, though, and Shan Yu seemed to pretty much try the same thing with Heartless. 

1 hour ago, Peypeypeypey said:

... but as is, I don't think either of them really deserves a vote

I guess it's a good thing I've always been more focused on talking to the community at large for these Draft debates, then. 

[RiotGear]

Shan Yu effectively being another head of state, should have political/military options Mim doesn't. 

An invasion of Arrendale or trying to force a marriage is going to cause Elsa to behave in way that is going to make it easy for her to go dark side.

She may start with the best of intentions, but enough hard choices, concessions, moral compromises. Tend to change people. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and all that stuff.

In other words the things that come with political manoeuvering and war may just break her resolve and cause her to ice age the country...again.

[Peypeypeypey]

46 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Shan Yu effectively being another head of state, should have political/military options Mim doesn't. 

An invasion of Arrendale or trying to force a marriage is going to cause Elsa to behave in way that is going to make it easy for her to go dark side.

She may start with the best of intentions, but enough hard choices, concessions, moral compromises. Tend to change people. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and all that stuff.

In other words the things that come with political manoeuvering and war may just break her resolve and cause her to ice age the country...again.

This is a really interesting interpretation of the challenge, but I'm not really sure it counts. Elsa wouldn't really be the "bad guy" in this scenario, she would arguably be doing a bad thing, but she would do it for the right reasons. When I read the challenge, I think of it more as "who can convince Elsa to join them," because "permanent evil" is pretty much impossible to define. In your proposed scenario, I definitely don't think that makes her "evil," even if you interpret it in the most negative light for Elsa possible

[DSkillz]

1 hour ago, RiotGear said:

Shan Yu effectively being another head of state, should have political/military options Mim doesn't. 

An invasion of Arrendale or trying to force a marriage is going to cause Elsa to behave in way that is going to make it easy for her to go dark side.

She may start with the best of intentions, but enough hard choices, concessions, moral compromises. Tend to change people. Heavy is the head that wears the crown and all that stuff.

In other words the things that come with political manoeuvering and war may just break her resolve and cause her to ice age the country...again.

Eh, I have a feeling that Elsa would effectively squash a potential invasion with her powers before it has much chance to get off the ground. Sure, there may be some causualties along the way, but Elsa would have warded the Huns off with the best of intentions. Besides, armies from the Dark Ages and before tended to be pretty superstitious and fearful of curses and the like, so the sight of Elsa conjuring up extreme cold would likely scare off a lot of the Huns as they start to march into Arendelle.

[RiotGear]

45 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

Eh, I have a feeling that Elsa would effectively squash a potential invasion with her powers before it has much chance to get off the ground. Sure, there may be some causualties along the way, but Elsa would have warded the Huns off with the best of intentions. Besides, armies from the Dark Ages and before tended to be pretty superstitious and fearful of curses and the like, so the sight of Elsa conjuring up extreme cold would likely scare off a lot of the Huns as they start to march into Arendelle.

It's not about beat the Huns in combat or whether it's justified. 

What you've just purposed is for an emotional unstable, socially stunted teenager who grew up isolated thinking she was a monster. To either order the death of or more likely personally cause the death of a thousand men. 

Elsa doesn't come away from that sanity intact. That is the kind of choice and action that haunts emotionally stable people. 

Afterwards she is racked with guilt and insecurities or embraces the power and control. 

Either route is a simple step away from further darkness. 

Using/indulging her powers that way is not a genie that be easily put back in the bottle. 

Also it may have stopped the Huns, but it is going to sow fear among her citizens as she's used her power on them before and her foreign allies. It make her a pariah/target in diplomatic circles.

This will simply intensify her pre-existing emotional and social problems until she lashes out in a way she can't come back from.

 

[Peypeypeypey]

33 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

It's not about beat the Huns in combat or whether it's justified. 

What you've just purposed is for an emotional unstable, socially stunted teenager who grew up isolated thinking she was a monster. To either order the death of or more likely personally cause the death of a thousand men. 

Elsa doesn't come away from that sanity intact. That is the kind of choice and action that haunts emotionally stable people. 

Afterwards she is racked with guilt and insecurities or embraces the power and control. 

Either route is a simple step away from further darkness. 

Using/indulging her powers that way is not a genie that be easily put back in the bottle. 

Also it may have stopped the Huns, but it is going to sow fear among her citizens as she's used her power on them before and her foreign allies. It make her a pariah/target in diplomatic circles.

This will simply intensify her pre-existing emotional and social problems until she lashes out in a way she can't come back from.

First, even if this worked exactly as you described, this wouldn't really be him "winning." Again, it makes more sense to look at it as "who can persuade Elsa to join them," rather than "who can make Elsa evil in some abstract way, because in your scenario he may well lose every single soldier he has and his own life to turn a girl he doesn't know to do more dark things. That's still a loss in my eyes.

Far more importantly, though, is that I don't buy that this would automatically make Elsa evil. It may just as well make her incredibly depressed and far less likely to use her power again. It may traumatize her and make her want to abdicate the throne and disappear from her kingdom's view. It may make her more confident and teach her to control her power through the necessity of saving her kingdom. Necessity is the mother of invention, after all. It's possible that it would make her evil, but it's far more likely that one of those other scenarios plays out in my eyes

[DSkillz]

10 hours ago, RiotGear said:

It's not about beat the Huns in combat or whether it's justified. 

What you've just purposed is for an emotional unstable, socially stunted teenager who grew up isolated thinking she was a monster. To either order the death of or more likely personally cause the death of a thousand men. 

Elsa doesn't come away from that sanity intact. That is the kind of choice and action that haunts emotionally stable people. 

Afterwards she is racked with guilt and insecurities or embraces the power and control. 

Either route is a simple step away from further darkness. 

Using/indulging her powers that way is not a genie that be easily put back in the bottle. 

Also it may have stopped the Huns, but it is going to sow fear among her citizens as she's used her power on them before and her foreign allies. It make her a pariah/target in diplomatic circles.

This will simply intensify her pre-existing emotional and social problems until she lashes out in a way she can't come back from.

 

I seriously doubt Elsa's gonna get all torn up over warding off an invasion from an army of hulking, menacing-looking men looking to rape and pillage, at least enough to turn to the dark side. 

Mim pretty clearly has more options here with her magic, whether it's as a mentor or if she influences her other ways.

[RiotGear]

10 hours ago, DSkillz said:

I seriously doubt Elsa's gonna get all torn up over warding off an invasion from an army of hulking, menacing-looking men looking to rape and pillage, at least enough to turn to the dark side. 

Are you saying she'd commit mass murder and not feel bad about it? 

That sounds pretty dark side.