12:13 - Jonah Hex vs. Sub-Zero

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 13

Jonah Hex

Slot: The Team's Scrappy Fighter
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Jonah Hex at this Wiki
Official Site: D.C. Comics

Sub-Zero

Slot: The Team's Scrappy Fighter
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Sub-Zero at this Wiki
Official Site: Midway

Battle Terrain
Battle Terrain: Redwood Forest

[Culwych1]

There is nothing that Jonah Hex brings to this fight that Sub Zero hasn't faced and overcome. Weapons; check. Speed and strength; check. Skill; double check.

Erron Black is actually not a million miles from Jonah Hex, and he didn't fare well at all alongside troops and other fighters against Sub and his Lin Kuei. 

Plus Sub Zero's ninja skills are going to be very useful in a forest. 

[RiotGear]

2 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

There is nothing that Jonah Hex brings to this fight that Sub Zero hasn't faced and overcome. Weapons; check. Speed and strenght; check. Erron Black is actually not a million miles from Jonah Hex, and he didn't fare so well with troops against Sub and his Lin Kuei. 

Plus Sub Zero's ninja skills are going to be very usful in a forest. 

Given the tracking skills, stealth, and senses of both contenders. A forest setting shouldn't be deciding factor.

That said this is a Redwood forest something Hex having traveled the U.S West Coast is probably something he is more familiar with then Sub-Zero.

It is also clear from folks like Stryker etc. That guns and explosives are viable weapons in Mortal Kombat.

Not that those in Mortal Kombat tend to have the same skill or accuracy with them as Hex.

We can also look to the some times kind of Canon Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe. To see that Mortal Kombat characters are not out of the range of DC street levelers.

Especially not those like Hex who are fast enough to cut bullets out of the air, strong enough to wrestle alligators/bears/robots, and skilled enough to fight and tag Batman both up close, and at range.

[Culwych1]

7 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Given the tracking skills, stealth, and senses of both contenders. A forest setting shouldn't be deciding factor.

That said this is a Redwood forest something Hex having traveled the U.S West Coast is probably something he is more familiar with then Sub-Zero.

It is also clear from folks like Stryker etc. That guns and explosives are viable weapons in Mortal Kombat.

Not that those in Mortal Kombat tend to have the same skill or accuracy with them as Hex.

We can also look to the some times kind of Canon Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe. To see that Mortal Kombat characters are not out of the range of DC street levelers.

Especially not those like Hex who are fast enough to cut bullets out of the air, strong enough to wrestle alligators/bears/robots, and skilled enough to fight and tag Batman both up close, and at range.

If we are going by MK vs DC then Sub Zero took out Deathstroke, so he should not have a problem with Jonah.

Sub Zero is a ninja, trained in stealth and using every shadow to his advantage, which is exactly why a forest would play to his strengths. 

Guns and explosives are viable weapons, but also that they are ineffective against the stronger combatants. We see from MK 11 that Reptile is able to dodge bullets and Sub Zero has no problem keeping up.

Additionally Jonah has no extra powers or abilities that would put him beyond Sub Zeros freeze ability.

[RiotGear]

28 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

If we are going by MK vs DC then Sub Zero took out Deathstroke, so he should not have a problem with Jonah.

Sub Zero is a ninja, trained in stealth and using every shadow to his advantage, which is exactly why a forest would play to his strengths. 

Guns and explosives are viable weapons, but also that they are ineffective against the stronger combatants. We see from MK 11 that Reptile is able to dodge bullets and Sub Zero has no problem keeping up.

Additionally Jonah has no extra powers or abilities that would put him beyond Sub Zeros freeze ability.

Jonah has wins against Batman. Who has also beat Deathstroke.

Jonah is one of the best trackers in DC. Trained by his adopted tribes ( who like ninjas in mass media have near superhuman aptitude for such things ) and likely has more experience in the environment in question. 

He can not only do things like track individual smells, but also see invisible time demons. 

So Sub-Zero can keep up with somebody who can dodge bullets. Hex doesn't need the extra degree of separation, he has blocked bullets himself and shot people like Batman, who regularly tangles with bullet dodgers. 

Between his own skills/toughness and weapons. Hex doesn't need extra powers.  He wouldn't be the first character in MK to do so.

Jonah should also have the range and firepower advantage here.

[Mercenaryblade]

Erron Black Vs Sub-Zero: Round one FIGHT! 

[Culwych1]

On 12/22/2021 at 10:39 PM, Mercenaryblade said:

Erron Black Vs Sub-Zero: Round one FIGHT! 

Pretty much!

And Sub Zero has proven to be faster, stronger, more skilled and have greater powers.

[RakaiThwei]

Going with Sub-Zero.

[RiotGear]

On 12/23/2021 at 2:33 AM, Culwych1 said:

Pretty much!

And Sub Zero has proven to be faster, stronger, more skilled and have greater powers.

Except Jonah isn't Erron and you have yet to provide any evidence so far that Sub-Zero is faster, stronger, or more skilled then Jonah Hex.

[Culwych1]

On 12/23/2021 at 6:30 PM, RiotGear said:

Except Jonah isn't Erron and you have yet to provide any evidence so far that Sub-Zero is faster, stronger, or more skilled then Jonah Hex.

OK

Faster: Sub Zero can teleport to move out of the way of bullets, and can fight teleporters. His reaction speeds are possibly comparable to Jonah's (who can also stop bullets once fired), but his combat speeds are just so much faster. For reference, VS Battles lists Sub Zero as hypersonic+ against Jonah's slower transonic.   

Stronger: Jonah fights strong animals; Sub Zero has been shown to rip spines out of people, gods and cyborgs and bust through metal doors. His training includes punching through stone slabs. Both his lifting strength and striking strength are higher on VS Battles Wiki than Jonah's. 

Skilled: Jonah is a good fighter no doubt, but he is not a Grand Master ninja who has trained all his life in martial arts. Sub Zero has a number of martial arts specialities, honed in combat against the strongest fighters in the world, and his power as a cryomancer has just grown in strength. He can now enhance his own skin with ice to make his hits harder, and add to this the huge number of other uses his power has (teleportation, freezing, clones, icing the ground and more). 

And the kicker, Jonah relies on weapons - which in any longer battle will run out of ammunition. Sub Zero can draw on limitless powers. If that happens and they close in for a fight, then its all over. 

[RiotGear]

On 12/23/2021 at 10:05 AM, Culwych1 said:

OK

Faster: Sub Zero can teleport to move out of the way of bullets, and can fight teleporters. His reaction speeds are possibly comparable to Jonah's (who can also stop bullets once fired), but his combat speeds are just so much faster. For reference, VS Battles lists Sub Zero as hypersonic+ against Jonah's slower transonic.   

Stronger: Jonah fights strong animals; Sub Zero has been shown to rip spines out of people, gods and cyborgs and bust through metal doors. His training includes punching through stone slabs. Both his lifting strength and striking strength are higher on VS Battles Wiki than Jonah's. 

Skilled: Jonah is a good fighter no doubt, but he is not a Grand Master ninja who has trained all his life in martial arts. Sub Zero has a number of martial arts specialities, honed in combat against the strongest fighters in the world, and his power as a cryomancer has just grown in strength. He can now enhance his own skin with ice to make his hits harder, and add to this the huge number of other uses his power has (teleportation, freezing, clones, icing the ground and more). 

And the kicker, Jonah relies on weapons - which in any longer battle will run out of ammunition. Sub Zero can draw on limitless powers. If that happens and they close in for a fight, then its all over. 

The ability to teleport out of the way of shooters doesn't mean he is outpacing the bullet. Even if he is that is not the same kind of reaction time that is needed to do things like block multiple close range shots with a sword the way Hex does.

How do we know Sub-Zero's combat speed is better? Hex has kept up with multiple opponents. 

Whether they are an army of martial artists 

https://m.imgur.com/a/4IgQFyW

Bar patrons. 

https://m.imgur.com/a/OEEZ1CJ

superhumans ( Nighthawk and Cinnamon )

https://m.imgur.com/a/ZlWIZIE

Or cavemen wielding AKs that can slow down an injured Wonder Woman. 

https://m.imgur.com/a/Rs126yQ

Wait, are you seriously trying to use VS Battles wiki as evidence? 

You realize that basically like using fanfiction right? 

It's not just strong animal Hex can snap necks 

https://m.imgur.com/a/yPbldFd

And rip apart cyborgs 

https://m.imgur.com/a/Blm0Uyl

Again with the VS Battles wiki stuff. It's a fan site, based on fan opinion. It's no different from here. Do you agree with the out come of every match on this site? Simply because other people said that should be the out come? 

Do you actually have examples of Sub-Zero's speed or strength? 

Hex was also conditioned and trained from his youth to be a fighter. Trained in the martial arts of his adopted tribe and then later by the military and by friends and lovers after that. 

Sub-Zero is a ninja, well partner. Hex has dealt with those too 

https://m.imgur.com/a/WQW8EVr

There was also that time he threw down with the god-damned Batman and won. Granted Batman was injured, but I figure Batman is pretty much a grandmaster ninja himself. 

As far as running out bullets and dynamite. Hex will still have his sabre, knife, and tomahawk. 

Sub-Zero can be dropped with enough stabbing or blunt trauma. 

Hex doesn't need his guns to win. 

Though he probably won't let it last long enough to run out of ammo anyway.

So far you haven't provided any reason why Hex can't just fill frosty full of lead at the bell. 

Again given the training and skill of both nobody is going to sneak up on the other. So they are going to end up squaring up and when they do Jonah's superior reaction time and ranged weaponry is going to carry the day.

 

 

[Culwych1]

On 12/23/2021 at 11:23 PM, RiotGear said:

The ability to teleport out of the way of shooters doesn't mean he is outpacing the bullet. Even if he is that is not the same kind of reaction time that is needed to do things like block multiple close range shots with a sword the way Hex does.

How do we know Sub-Zero's combat speed is better? Hex has kept up with multiple opponents. 

Whether they are an army of martial artists 

https://m.imgur.com/a/4IgQFyW

Bar patrons. 

https://m.imgur.com/a/OEEZ1CJ

superhumans ( Nighthawk and Cinnamon )

https://m.imgur.com/a/ZlWIZIE

Or cavemen wielding AKs that can slow down an injured Wonder Woman. 

https://m.imgur.com/a/Rs126yQ

Wait, are you seriously trying to use VS Battles wiki as evidence? 

You realize that basically like using fanfiction right? 

It's not just strong animal Hex can snap necks 

https://m.imgur.com/a/yPbldFd

And rip apart cyborgs 

https://m.imgur.com/a/Blm0Uyl

Again with the VS Battles wiki stuff. It's a fan site, based on fan opinion. It's no different from here. Do you agree with the out come of every match on this site? Simply because other people said that should be the out come? 

Do you actually have examples of Sub-Zero's speed or strength? 

Hex was also conditioned and trained from his youth to be a fighter. Trained in the martial arts of his adopted tribe and then later by the military and by friends and lovers after that. 

Sub-Zero is a ninja, well partner. Hex has dealt with those too 

https://m.imgur.com/a/WQW8EVr

There was also that time he threw down with the god-damned Batman and won. Granted Batman was injured, but I figure Batman is pretty much a grandmaster ninja himself. 

As far as running out bullets and dynamite. Hex will still have his sabre, knife, and tomahawk. 

Sub-Zero can be dropped with enough stabbing or blunt trauma. 

Hex doesn't need his guns to win. 

Though he probably won't let it last long enough to run out of ammo anyway.

So far you haven't provided any reason why Hex can't just fill frosty full of lead at the bell. 

Again given the training and skill of both nobody is going to sneak up on the other. So they are going to end up squaring up and when they do Jonah's superior reaction time and ranged weaponry is going to carry the day.

 

 

 

Stength: Here is Sub Zero clearly ripping a cyborg in two and here a human in two. I'd put both of those strength feats  above what you have shown, and I'm not sure that Jonah is "ripping apart" a cyborg in your scan - he wounds the eyes. 

Additionally, here Sub Zero demolishes stone slabs with a single punch. 

Speed: Here Sub Zero freezes three soldiers with automatic weapons before they can react, or freezes Frost before Scorpion can swing his sword, or teleports out of the way of someone mid-kick. Heck, he can freeze and destroy soldier's heads in seconds, and he reacts to a teleporter appearing behind him with an attack that impales (I'd also classify this under the skill/power section). 

Weapons: Sub Zero can create axes, swords, shields, knives and more out of his ice - and his creations are durable enough to slice through metal. 

Skills/Powers: His speed aside and skills aside, his ice can withstand heat and explosions so Jonah isn't just "filling frosty full of lead at the bell". Opponents with guns, lazers, rockets, magic weapons and more, that are superior to anything Jonah has, can't do that to Sub Zero so there is no reason to assume he would be able to. 

 

[RiotGear]

On 12/23/2021 at 9:58 PM, Culwych1 said:

 

Stength: Here is Sub Zero clearly ripping a cyborg in two and here a human in two. I'd put both of those strength feats  above what you have shown, and I'm not sure that Jonah is "ripping apart" a cyborg in your scan - he wounds the eyes. 

Additionally, here Sub Zero demolishes stone slabs with a single punch. 

Speed: Here Sub Zero freezes three soldiers with automatic weapons before they can react, or freezes Frost before Scorpion can swing his sword, or teleports out of the way of someone mid-kick. Heck, he can freeze and destroy soldier's heads in seconds, and he reacts to a teleporter appearing behind him with an attack that impales (I'd also classify this under the skill/power section). 

Weapons: Sub Zero can create axes, swords, shields, knives and more out of his ice - and his creations are durable enough to slice through metal. 

Skills/Powers: His speed aside and skills aside, his ice can withstand heat and explosions so Jonah isn't just "filling frosty full of lead at the bell". Opponents with guns, lazers, rockets, magic weapons and more, that are superior to anything Jonah has, can't do that to Sub Zero so there is no reason to assume he would be able to. 

 

Strength: Jonah doesn't wound it's eyes, he rips a visor off it that is surgically imbedded in it head and cracks said visor in the process. 

Sub-Zero destroys a metal construct you say. 

Here is Hex resisting the bite force of a bear. 

https://m.imgur.com/a/V42P4P7

And an alligator 

https://www.google.com/search?q=jonah+hex+vs+alligator&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&prmd=ivnx&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiTpsHH89X0AhXQHc0KHS_xAkoQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=836&dpr=1.75#imgrc=n-eVkBlobYp_lM

For reference, list of the bite force psi of animals 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.zendentalcenterseattle.com/amp/who-has-the-strongest-jaws-in-the-animal-kingdom-with-your-seattle-wa-family-general-dentist

And of car crushers 

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-crusher1.htm#:~:text=Almost all modern car crushers,a pile of scrap cars.

So bears and alligator bite force is similar to that of machines that can crush cars and Jonah can resist can contend with that strength.

For fun alligator vs truck 

 

Additionally, Jonah can crack the visor of a riot helmet. 

https://m.imgur.com/a/cmMMCc5

For reference ballistic visor vs guns 

and bullets vs concrete/cinder blocks/brick

 

 

 

In other words it doesn't seem like lifting or striking strength is to far apart for these two. 

Speed:  Sub-Zero takes out 3 gunmen. Neat here is Hex taking out 4 

https://www.google.com/search?q=jonah+hex+vs+4+respect+thread&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&prmd=isvxn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjz0-K4vf_0AhUiNX0KHQnzDwEQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=780&dpr=1.75#imgrc=Mq0XjGLlm2TdoM

How about a dozen or so 

https://m.imgur.com/a/1AKEo42

So reaction speed wise Sub-Zero can dodge punches and kicks. 

While Hex can dodge RPGs 

https://m.imgur.com/a/sQROI0V

And block bullets 

In case anybody was wondering, yes bullets are faster then punches. 

Also we have this where Jonah is passed out and comes too as a rattlesnake is in mid lunge and he is still able to draw and fire. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=jonah+hex+vs+rattle+snake&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&prmd=ivnx&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiprOjjv__0AhW5HjQIHcPLAqYQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=780&dpr=1.75#imgrc=yd1q7GHeNhz18M

Or this where his back is turned and his enemy already has his gun raised, finger on the trigger and Jonah still manages to turn and fire before his opponent. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=jonah+hex+respect+thread+reflexes&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&prmd=isvxn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-_Ye6xrj0AhX9Mn0KHafnC_8Q_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=780&dpr=1.75#imgrc=95hdE-HvFSNfRM

In short the difference in speed so far shown is substantially in Hex's favor. 

Also to further address there rating on VS Battles wiki. 

Hex is a DC character so by there rules is not allowed to scale to other characters, where as Sub-Zero, not being Marvel/DC immediately scales to the fastest character in MK.

So Hex is faster, about as strong, just as if not more skilled ( we really haven't scene fighting feats for Sub-Zero yet ), has longer range weapons/explosives, and likely a home field advantage.

That should more then make up for ice magic.

There may be gun men in MK, but not any that have Hex's speed, skill, accuracy. Combined with his martial prowess and toughness. 

As shown in previous matches Jonah has managed to shoot Batman and her he is managing to shoot Vandal Savage 

https://m.imgur.com/a/DEmPEoN 

Who himself is a bullet timer.

He is going to have no issue hitting Sub-Zero and he can do it before, the ninja gets an ice shield up. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Culwych1]

2 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Strength: Jonah doesn't wound it's eyes, he rips a visor off it that is surgically imbedded in it head and cracks said visor in the process. 

Sub-Zero destroys a metal construct you say. 

Here is Hex resisting the bite force of a bear. 

https://m.imgur.com/a/V42P4P7

And an alligator 

https://www.google.com/search?q=jonah+hex+vs+alligator&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&prmd=ivnx&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiTpsHH89X0AhXQHc0KHS_xAkoQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=836&dpr=1.75#imgrc=n-eVkBlobYp_lM

For reference, list of the bite force psi of animals 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.zendentalcenterseattle.com/amp/who-has-the-strongest-jaws-in-the-animal-kingdom-with-your-seattle-wa-family-general-dentist

And of car crushers 

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-crusher1.htm#:~:text=Almost all modern car crushers,a pile of scrap cars.

So bears and alligator bite force is similar to that of machines that can crush cars and Jonah can resist can contend with that strength.

For fun alligator vs truck 

 

Additionally, Jonah can crack the visor of a riot helmet. 

https://m.imgur.com/a/cmMMCc5

For reference ballistic visor vs guns 

and bullets vs concrete/cinder blocks/brick

 

 

 

 

 

Having trouble editing this quote to address specific points for some reason (don't have access to laptop at the mo), but there's a lot to unpick here.

Stength: I'm hoping you are not comparing the strength of an animals bite to that required to break or bend steel? A quick search online shows the max psi for an animal around 2-3 thousand psi whereas averaging 40 thousand psi for steel. Admittedly I don't know much about those figures, but will have a look at some point. 

Also Jonah has not shown near the level of strength required to break the rocks from my scan - which is with a single punch! 

Speed: I've granted that reaction speeds are comparable, so the bullet slicing etc. doesnt actually contradict what I've said, but combat speed is a different beast. Sub Zero keeps up with reptile who bullet dodges, has dodged Kano's laser beam (faster than a bullet), also dodges mach rockets and explosions, and keeps up with Scorpion who has shown to dodge Raiden's lightning.

I'd also strongly dispute the statement about characters in MK not having Jonah Hexs speed, skill or accuracy - but I'll leave that here as is and just mention the names Blade and Briggs. Some research should easily show you what they are capable of and how it surpasses Hexs weaponry and skill.

[RiotGear]

2 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

Having trouble editing this quote to address specific points for some reason (don't have access to laptop at the mo), but there's a lot to unpick here.

Stength: I'm hoping you are not comparing the strength of an animals bite to that required to break or bend steel? A quick search online shows the max psi for an animal around 2-3 thousand psi whereas averaging 40 thousand psi for steel. Admittedly I don't know much about those figures, but will have a look at some point. 

Also Jonah has not shown near the level of strength required to break the rocks from my scan - which is with a single punch! 

Speed: I've granted that reaction speeds are comparable, so the bullet slicing etc. doesnt actually contradict what I've said, but combat speed is a different beast. Sub Zero keeps up with reptile who bullet dodges, has dodged Kano's laser beam (faster than a bullet), also dodges mach rockets and explosions, and keeps up with Scorpion who has shown to dodge Raiden's lightning.

I'd also strongly dispute the statement about characters in MK not having Jonah Hexs speed, skill or accuracy - but I'll leave that here as is and just mention the names Blade and Briggs. Some research should easily show you what they are capable of and how it surpasses Hexs weaponry and skill.

What I'm saying is that the bite force of animals like bears and alligators is around 1000-2000+ PSI and the PSI exerted by car crushers, as in the machines used to compact cars for junkyards/recycling, is usually a little over 2,000 PSI. 

Now cars are not completely made out of steel or metal, but then generally Neither are cyborgs. 

So if Hex can resist this kind of pressure. It means. Yes he can contend with the strength needed crush a car. Which is going to be made out of a lot of the same stuff as cyborgs/robots. 

Hex was able to crack and break pieces off the visor of a riot helmet with a punch. Said visor are designed to be bullet and shatter resistant. 

The same can't be said for the stones/bricks usually used in the kind of practice Sub-Zero was doing. 

How are you defining combat speed? Because I shown that Hex can keep up with multiple attackers/opponents, including trained ones, in melee combat. 

Can you do the same for Sub-Zero. 

So far the closest you've got is home freezing the head of two guys. 

Your others examples are reacting to single opponents or using a ranged attack on the soldiers. Which is closer to Hex shooting incoming assailants the fighting them H2H.

Can you supply an example of what you consider combat speed. 

Here is Hex combining melee combat with combat shooting 

https://www.google.com/search?q=jonah+hex+respect+thread+reflexes&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&prmd=isvxn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip1aD59__0AhWRKH0KHaXhBzYQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=780&dpr=1.75#imgrc=4ClWbTQuwRFCeM

https://www.google.com/search?q=jonah+hex+respect+thread+reflexes&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&prmd=isvxn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip1aD59__0AhWRKH0KHaXhBzYQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=780&dpr=1.75#imgrc=2OzKHHscFm1-gM&imgdii=LclWegcGtBzJqM

I'll also point out that once your in a gunfight it's ceases to be entirely "reaction speed" because you are using it in combat.

Jonah's speed is not a one trick, like focusing to catch a single arrow. It's consistent. 

So if they close to melee Zero may be able land some hits, but he is going to do so less consistently and is going to have to work harder to do so. 

That is all kind of moot though as Sub-Zero has never demonstrates the ability to dodge bullets nor has he shown Hex's draw/reaction speed and as mentioned early on they are both going to get a bead on each other almost immediately at which point it's in character for both to square up. 

When they do Hex draws first and the ice ninja get head full of lead. 

Again Hex can contend with Sub-Zero's strength and skill, but Sub-Zero has no answer for Hex's draw speed, ranged weaponry, and accuracy. 

Can you provide evidence of how those characters are above Hex and how they compare to Sub-Zero?

[Culwych1]

9 hours ago, RiotGear said:

What I'm saying is that the bite force of animals like bears and alligators is around 1000-2000+ PSI and the PSI exerted by car crushers, as in the machines used to compact cars for junkyards/recycling, is usually a little over 2,000 PSI. 

Now cars are not completely made out of steel or metal, but then generally Neither are cyborgs. 

So if Hex can resist this kind of pressure. It means. Yes he can contend with the strength needed crush a car. Which is going to be made out of a lot of the same stuff as cyborgs/robots. 

Hex was able to crack and break pieces off the visor of a riot helmet with a punch. Said visor are designed to be bullet and shatter resistant. 

The same can't be said for the stones/bricks usually used in the kind of practice Sub-Zero was doing. 

How are you defining combat speed? Because I shown that Hex can keep up with multiple attackers/opponents, including trained ones, in melee combat. 

Can you do the same for Sub-Zero. 

So far the closest you've got is home freezing the head of two guys. 

Your others examples are reacting to single opponents or using a ranged attack on the soldiers. Which is closer to Hex shooting incoming assailants the fighting them H2H.

Can you supply an example of what you consider combat speed. 

Here is Hex combining melee combat with combat shooting 

https://www.google.com/search?q=jonah+hex+respect+thread+reflexes&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&prmd=isvxn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip1aD59__0AhWRKH0KHaXhBzYQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=780&dpr=1.75#imgrc=4ClWbTQuwRFCeM

https://www.google.com/search?q=jonah+hex+respect+thread+reflexes&client=ms-android-motorola-rvo3&prmd=isvxn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip1aD59__0AhWRKH0KHaXhBzYQ_AUoAXoECAIQAQ&biw=412&bih=780&dpr=1.75#imgrc=2OzKHHscFm1-gM&imgdii=LclWegcGtBzJqM

I'll also point out that once your in a gunfight it's ceases to be entirely "reaction speed" because you are using it in combat.

Jonah's speed is not a one trick, like focusing to catch a single arrow. It's consistent. 

So if they close to melee Zero may be able land some hits, but he is going to do so less consistently and is going to have to work harder to do so. 

That is all kind of moot though as Sub-Zero has never demonstrates the ability to dodge bullets nor has he shown Hex's draw/reaction speed and as mentioned early on they are both going to get a bead on each other almost immediately at which point it's in character for both to square up. 

When they do Hex draws first and the ice ninja get head full of lead. 

Again Hex can contend with Sub-Zero's strength and skill, but Sub-Zero has no answer for Hex's draw speed, ranged weaponry, and accuracy. 

Can you provide evidence of how those characters are above Hex and how they compare to Sub-Zero?

Dunno, feels like some of my examples are being ignored so think we'll have to leave this as agree to disagree.

You're saying Jonahs skill and firepower etc., is superior to those characters in MK and using that as an argument he could beat Sub Zero - I think the evidence that Jonah is superior to the likes of Briggs and Blade family falls to you to bring.

[RiotGear]

18 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Dunno, feels like some of my examples are being ignored so think we'll have to leave this as agree to disagree.

You're saying Jonahs skill and firepower etc., is superior to those characters in MK and using that as an argument he could beat Sub Zero - I think the evidence that Jonah is superior to the likes of Briggs and Blade family falls to you to bring.

Which examples do you think are being ignored? I will address them if I can. 

While I have contended that he is superior to those MK characters in question. I did so in response to the comparisons made to Erron Black. 

So perhaps you'd like to expand on the comparison bey Hex and Black. Besides that they both carry guns.

[Culwych1]

13 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Which examples do you think are being ignored? I will address them if I can. 

While I have contended that he is superior to those MK characters in question. I did so in response to the comparisons made to Erron Black. 

So perhaps you'd like to expand on the comparison bey Hex and Black. Besides that they both carry guns.

I said Jonah's not a million miles from Erron (in that they both cowboys who shoot guns fast) but for the avoidance of doubt I think that Jonah is superior to Erron (but obviously that Subs is superior to both 😆).

I don't however think Jonah is necessarily superior to the like of Sonya Blade or Jax, who can shoot lasers that blow monsters head off, can quickdraw headshots without even looking at the targets, or who can dodge plasma beams (respect threads will show all those examples) - and these characters have also lost to Sub Zero. 

Examples of feats for Sub-Zero include beating a bullet dodger, avoiding lasers, keeping up with someone who can avoid lightning, and as I've said, the maths doesn't stack up - someone punching through multiple slabs of rock and ripping steel is superior in strength in my opinion to someone who temporarily held open a crocodile's jaws (which normal humans have done).

But as I said, I'm happy to leave it there as I don't think we'll agree on this (nor should we considering the circumstances and that we both want our guy to win).

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Jonah Hex: 2
Sub-Zero: 7