12:15 - Mandrill vs. Calender Man

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 15

Mandrill

Slot: The Team's Worst Villain
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Mandrill at this Wiki
Official Site: Marvel

Calender Man

Slot: The Team's Worst Villain
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Calender Man at this Wiki
Official Site: DC Comics

Battle Terrain
Kidnap Jack-Jack

[Culwych1]

As mentioned in the last Calendar Man fight:  Calendar Man actually has some experience with super powerful child-like beings - Mr Mxyzptlk and Batmite have both had run ins with him and loved him!

Additionally, he ties crimes to holidays and is a master inventor. Can you imagine the christmas, easter, birthday or other festive things he could invent to keep Jack-Jack entertained and/or captive. This task feels made for him!

[Peypeypeypey]

This is easy for the Mandril. Just show up when Helen is holding him. She'll fall for his Pheromones

[Fox]

1 minute ago, Peypeypeypey said:

This is easy for the Mandril. Just show up when Helen is holding him. She'll fall for his Pheromones

I'm actually going to give Elasti-Girl more credit than to instantly fall for this creepy Harvey Weinstein villain.

The Mandrill is not the Purple Man - his shtick is much more breakable.

That said I imagine Mandrill has a path to victory here, possibly through other female child caregivers. I just do not see a path to victory through Helen Parr.

[Peypeypeypey]

1 minute ago, Fox said:

I'm actually going to give Elasti-Girl more credit than to instantly fall for this creepy Harvey Weinstein villain.

The Mandrill is not the Purple Man - his shtick is much more breakable.

That said I imagine Mandrill has a path to victory here, possibly through other female child caregivers. I just do not see a path to victory through Helen Parr.

Fair enough. He could definitely get to Kari, the babysitter from the first movie. He has a lot of options and is generally a good planner for these things

[Culwych1]

1 minute ago, Fox said:

I'm actually going to give Elasti-Girl more credit than to instantly fall for this creepy Harvey Weinstein villain.

The Mandrill is not the Purple Man - his shtick is much more breakable.

That said I imagine Mandrill has a path to victory here, possibly through other female child caregivers. I just do not see a path to victory through Helen Parr.

Agreed, and I did consider this. But the film clearly shows the impact of a "regular" caregiver trying to take care of a superpower like Jack-Jack. This solution, which appears the obvious one, is the one I think will lead to Mandrills downfall.

Whereas Calendar Man has all the resources, talent and intellect to make this fun for Jack Jack so he actually hangs around.

[Peypeypeypey]

Mandrill is also incredibly smart, and he has a better power for this. Black Widow is also a highly trained super hero and she has fallen under Mandrills pheromones too. Babies are very often left in the care of women in our society, so he has a lot of opportunities, and if Jack Jack trusts them he'll probably just go along with them. He doesn't have to do anything nefarious to either party, and he's a color animal which babies love

[Culwych1]

38 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Mandrill is also incredibly smart, and he has a better power for this. Black Widow is also a highly trained super hero and she has fallen under Mandrills pheromones too. Babies are very often left in the care of women in our society, so he has a lot of opportunities, and if Jack Jack trusts them he'll probably just go along with them. He doesn't have to do anything nefarious to either party, and he's a color animal which babies love

Mandrill makes no secret of his misogyny and has assaulted a number of his female victims. I don't see Jack Jack trusting him, and he has shown some pretty good intuition previously. 

Calendar Man however isn't that evil; sure he's not the greatest but he does show an almost childlike nativity that appeals to childlike beings.

I don't see any way that Mandrills personality allows him to effectively take on this challenge over Calendar Man.

[Peypeypeypey]

18 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Mandrill makes no secret of his misogyny and has assaulted a number of his female victims. I don't see Jack Jack trusting him, and he has shown some pretty good intuition previously. 

Calendar Man however isn't that evil; sure he's not the greatest but he does show an almost childlike nativity that appeals to childlike beings.

I don't see any way that Mandrills personality allows him to effectively take on this challenge over Calendar Man.

He is a misogynist, but he's also not a complete moron. If his goal is to keep Jack Jack as long as possible, he's smart enough to know that his best bet is to keep his caretaker there and safe and not scare him. If he does that, Jack Jack won't have a reason to dislike him or make things difficult

[Culwych1]

8 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

He is a misogynist, but he's also not a complete moron. If his goal is to keep Jack Jack as long as possible, he's smart enough to know that his best bet is to keep his caretaker there and safe and not scare him. If he does that, Jack Jack won't have a reason to dislike him or make things difficult

He's a rapist, which suggests at least to some degree that he cannot control his urges. 

But the biggest flaw... a mild electric shock is enough to free people from his influence.

This is Jack Jack:

 

[Peypeypeypey]

8 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

He's a rapist, which suggests at least to some degree that he cannot control his urges. 

But the biggest flaw... a mild electric shock is enough to free people from his influence.

This is Jack Jack:

 

That first argument makes no sense. Calendar Man is a serial killer, does that mean he'll automatically try to kill Jack Jack? Of course not. In fact, CM is usually depicted specifically as having a type of uncontrollable compulsion to commit crimes on holidays. Like most Batman rogues, his main flaw is a psychological one. He would be the far more likely of the two to have an uncontrollable urge. Mandrill has proven to be able to control himself long enough to do schemes time and time again. 

As for the second point, Jack Jack doesn't know or even understand that, and if Mandrill is having someone watch Jack Jack dutifully, there's really no reason he should even feel the need to try to escape

[Culwych1]

15 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

That first argument makes no sense. Calendar Man is a serial killer, does that mean he'll automatically try to kill Jack Jack? Of course not. In fact, CM is usually depicted specifically as having a type of uncontrollable compulsion to commit crimes on holidays. Like most Batman rogues, his main flaw is a psychological one. He would be the far more likely of the two to have an uncontrollable urge. Mandrill has proven to be able to control himself long enough to do schemes time and time again. 

As for the second point, Jack Jack doesn't know or even understand that, and if Mandrill is having someone watch Jack Jack dutifully, there's really no reason he should even feel the need to try to escape

First point: Calendar Man is crazy, but Mandrill is pure evil. There is nothing to say that he won't harm the women, as his past suggests that is a strong possibility. It doesn't interfere with the mission. Calendar Man would take this solo, so killing Jack would make no sense.

As to the second point  Jack Jack is seen in that picture creating electricity with his dad! And he has done so in a number of other encounters again. Didn't he actually become a lightning bolt at one stage (I might be misremembering that). If he uses any of that power at any point then the women will no longer be under Mandrills control - and it will take a split second for her to turn Jack on Mandrill.

Edit: I've just rewatched  bit of Incredibles 2 - Jack Jack is incredibly tuned in to people controlling others. He recognises that someone is controlling his mother and acts to disrupt it. That is a clear way for Mandrills approach to fail.

Edit 2: wasn't a lightning bolt he turned into, was a fire baby. But he did have electricity powers as well as disrupted electricity when he used that firework type power - so at least 2 of his powers would likely stop Mandrills influence over a controlled babysitter.

[Peypeypeypey]

9 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

First point: Calendar Man is crazy, but Mandrill is pure evil. There is nothing to say that he won't harm the women, as his past suggests that is a strong possibility. It doesn't interfere with the mission. Calendar Man would take this solo, so killing Jack would make no sense.

As to the second point  Jack Jack is seen in that picture creating electricity with his dad! And he has done so in a number of other encounters again. Didn't he actually become a lightning bolt at one stage (I might be misremembering that). If he uses any of that power at any point then the women will no longer be under Mandrills control - and it will take a split second for her to turn Jack on Mandrill.

Edit: I've just rewatched  bit of Incredibles 2 - Jack Jack is incredibly tuned in to people controlling others. He recognises that someone is controlling his mother and acts to disrupt it. That is a clear way for Mandrills approach to fail.

You did literally nothing to address my first point. Mandrill is evil, not stupid. He's not going to do something stupid to jeopardize the mission just because he's a misogynist. Calendar Man, on the other hand, is legitimately not mentally well enough to carry out his plans sometimes because if his psychological urge to murder people. So this argument works much better against Calendar Man than Mandrill. 

It's been a while since I've seen the scene, but Mr. incredible didn't react as if he's been electrocuted I don't think. He just discharged lightning. In the above picture it doesn't look like any lightning is arcing to Bob. As for the last point, that's because Elastigirl is made to act incredibly differently and hostile towards him and the rest of his family. Mandrills power is much more subtle and he can have people act relatively normally, just very very receptive of what he says

[Culwych1]

11 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

You did literally nothing to address my first point. Mandrill is evil, not stupid. He's not going to do something stupid to jeopardize the mission just because he's a misogynist. Calendar Man, on the other hand, is legitimately not mentally well enough to carry out his plans sometimes because if his psychological urge to murder people. So this argument works much better against Calendar Man than Mandrill. 

It's been a while since I've seen the scene, but Mr. incredible didn't react as if he's been electrocuted I don't think. He just discharged lightning. In the above picture it doesn't look like any lightning is arcing to Bob. As for the last point, that's because Elastigirl is made to act incredibly differently and hostile towards him and the rest of his family. Mandrills power is much more subtle and he can have people act relatively normally, just very very receptive of what he says

Lol, never did I think I'd have to argue about whether a rapist or a serial killer would be the best at kidnapping a kid. Thanks CBUB! 

But yes, I do see a fundamental difference between the two. Killing because of a compulsion or towards a goal, especially in a place like Gotham where life is cheap, is very different to the baser instinct and need for control that rape entails. 

Am actually a bit uncomfortable about carrying on this discussion, so will have to leave it as agree to disagree on this point!

Mandrill isn't a bad strategist, admittedly, but Calendar Man does outdo him completely in that department. This is the man who goes up against the Batman, and who has philosophically defeated both Bane and Batman.

The point against Mandrill is that he will need to recruit people and have them cope with Jack Jack's powers - a tough task even with a compulsion. Then add the risk of Jack Jack recognising that there is something wrong with the person, something wrong with Mandrill, or using a power which could disrupt the influence, and there is a lot that could go wrong with Mandrills plan. 

[Peypeypeypey]

12 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Lol, never did I think I'd have to argue about whether a rapist or a serial killer would be the best at kidnapping a kid. Thanks CBUB! 

But yes, I do see a fundamental difference between the two. Killing because of a compulsion or towards a goal, especially in a place like Gotham where life is cheap, is very different to the baser instinct and need for control that rape entails. 

Am actually a bit uncomfortable about carrying on this discussion, so will have to leave it as agree to disagree on this point!

Mandrill isn't a bad strategist, admittedly, but Calendar Man does outdo him completely in that department. This is the man who goes up against the Batman, and who has philosophically defeated both Bane and Batman.

The point against Mandrill is that he will need to recruit people and have them cope with Jack Jack's powers - a tough task even with a compulsion. Then add the risk of Jack Jack recognising that there is something wrong with the person, something wrong with Mandrill, or using a power which could disrupt the influence, and there is a lot that could go wrong with Mandrills plan. 

Lol yeah, when I picked Mandrill I thought "This is a funny looking monkey man, oh, he has mind control, neat!" Then I actually read up on him after the draft started and realized "oh no, this is not a funny monkey man"

But mandrill has proven time and again that he can execute plans without resorting to such things is the plan cares for it. Most of his stories involve him using women without abusing them overtly, so he can do this fine. Everything else you says is equally true of Calendar Man. His plans can get derailed just as easily, but he lacks the power to get far, and has no means of getting people to help him. Mandrill does, and his power will help him a lot. This is pretty obviously his advantage

[Culwych1]

31 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Lol yeah, when I picked Mandrill I thought "This is a funny looking monkey man, oh, he has mind control, neat!" Then I actually read up on him after the draft started and realized "oh no, this is not a funny monkey man"

😆😆😆

 

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Mandrill: 7
Calender Man: 5