12:16 - Tyranids vs. Reapers

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 16

Tyranids

Slot: The Team's Planetary Invasion Force
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Tyranids at Wikipedia
Official Site: Games Workshop PLC

Reapers

Slot: The Team's Planetary Invasion Force
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Reapers at Wikipedia
Official Site: BioWare

Battle Terrain
Alien Invasion: Fleet Battle

[Twogunkid]

This is a good fleet battle, but the Tyranids have a huge disadvantage which is Reaper Indoctrination/Huskification of their species. We have seen the Reapers take over whole collectives of Geth and hives of Rachni, so it stands to reason the Tyranids could face a similar fate and become part of the Reaper forces.

 

The reason why Indoctrination and Dragon's Teeth should work is because Tyranids are vulnerable to Chaos Corruption, so it stands to reason the Reapers can do the same.

[Pizzaguy2995]

Bring the Reapers on! I should remind folks that while both sides commit galaxy wide genocide countless times the Reapers feat is a bit weaker is that they make sure to leave technology like the Citadel and the Mass Relays behind for the next cycle to base their own technology off them. That gives them a significant advantage in that the Reapers already know how to take them down and they’ll have an easy line to the civilizations leadership to cut off their figural heads.

Thus the Tyranids main advantage will be that for the first time in a millennium the Reapers will have to face a fellow galactic destroyer civilization whose technology isn’t based on there’s and where they can’t just do their usual strategy of taking out their enemies leaders in their opening attack. They’ll have to develop an original strategy for the first time ever and I think they’ll flounder a bit at first and allow the Tyranids to take an early advantage in the war.

Unlike the Reapers the Tyranids don’t need to rig the deck in their favor to win, they’ve wiped out and devoured possible millions of different galaxies all on their own merit of being super adaptable and always having the numbers to overwhelm their enemies.

Also I don’t see the Reapers indoctrination being a threat to the Tyranids. They are already being mentally controlled by the Hive Tyrant who controls almost all thoughts and actions of all the Tyranids under his command. It’s very similar to the Thorian from Mass Effect 1, a creature who can mind control others and seems itself immune to the indoctrination of the Reapers. If it wasn’t then Saren wouldn’t have needed to barter and trade with it in order to get the cipher.

 

[Twogunkid]

If the Reapers can enslave Rachni queens and the Geth collective, the Hive Tyrant should likewise be vulnerable. The Thorian is another precursor species like the Leviathans. The Reapers even use the Thorian spores in ME3 to control people, so the Thorian (which is a plant) is not beyond Reaper use.

 

Tyranids are organics. Husks and indoctrination are totally in the Reaper's wheelhouse against them.

 

The nids are in search of organic matter to harvest much like the Reapers are. However, the Reaper ship has a lot more machine than organic matter. The nids can only replenish their manpower via Nornqueens whereas every Tyranid corpse is a new husk for the Reapers. Further, each hive ship can be huskified or indoctrinated. There is a lot of risk for the Tyranids to keep resupplying the Reapers while getting little in return for restoring their own numbers. Tyranid battleships are primarily launch points for the swarm.

 

Tyranid weapons are biological in nature, acid, spikes, bio-acid, and bio-plasma which are mainly to allow Tyranids to board enemy vessels and do more damage against crews because their objective is the acquisition of new bio-matter for the hive. The Reaper's mass driver beam is a more dedicated anti-ship weapon and will more easily allow wound, killing, and huskifying of hive ships.

Tyranid FTL via the Narvhal is a big step down to Mass Effect FTL via Mass Relays as the Narvhal is stated to be almost completely defenseless wheras the Mass Effect ships are up and running. So as the forces warp in, the Reapers get free shots at the Tyranids deploy outside of a solar system.

[Pizzaguy2995]

17 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

 

If the Reapers can enslave Rachni queens and the Geth collective, the Hive Tyrant should likewise be vulnerable. The Thorian is another precursor species like the Leviathans. The Reapers even use the Thorian spores in ME3 to control people, so the Thorian (which is a plant) is not beyond Reaper use.

 

The Reapers used the Thorian spores in ME3? Sorry dude I played Mass Effect 3 and that’s just not true. In fact in the email Shepard got from Zhu’s Hope (the colony the Thorian originally enslaved) the people there were actually very successful in resisting the Reapers attack mostly because the lingering effects of the spores allowed them to communicate and coordinate attacks very well. Never mentioned anything about the Reapers using the Thorian spores.

Also the Reapers were only able to indoctrinate the Rachni children and only through surgical implantation and genetic modification. That plus the fact that they were unable to indoctrinate the Rachni Queen seems to suggest that the Rachni were also immune to the brainwashing type indoctrination, just like how I imagine the Tyranids will be.

17 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

The nids are in search of organic matter to harvest much like the Reapers are. However, the Reaper ship has a lot more machine than organic matter. The nids can only replenish their manpower via Nornqueens whereas every Tyranid corpse is a new husk for the Reapers. Further, each hive ship can be huskified or indoctrinated. There is a lot of risk for the Tyranids to keep resupplying the Reapers while getting little in return for restoring their own numbers. Tyranid battleships are primarily launch points for the swarm.

Actually in ME 2 it was revealed that Reapers are are at least internally created from the raw genetic material of organic races. Remember the Human-Reaper that the Collectors were abducting human colonists in order to create? EDI estimated that millions of humans would be needed to fill that thing up, so if the other Reapers were also filled with millions of organic biomass’s then I’m thinking that’ll be a good meal for the Tyranids to feed on. Also again not only have the Rachni and Thorian also been able to resist indoctrination, but I as I also recall it takes Reapers days if not a week to indoctrinate a host and said host must be inside a Reaper during that process. So the Reapers brainwashing technique definitely has it’s limits.

17 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Tyranid FTL via the Narvhal is a big step down to Mass Effect FTL via Mass Relays as the Narvhal is stated to be almost completely defenseless wheras the Mass Effect ships are up and running. So as the forces warp in, the Reapers get free shots at the Tyranids deploy outside of a solar system.

I’m not sure if the Reapers can actually hit a target from a solar system distance away, but I do concede to the point that the Reapers will have a mobility and speed advantage. However that advantage will be offset by the Tyranids clear numbers advantage. Even if the Reapers are able to take out half the Tyranid forces before they close the distance the remaining Hive Ships will be then sufficient to smother the Reaper forces. How do I know that? Well despite Sovereign’s claims of the Reapers numbers being able to “darken the sky of every world” the truth is the Reapers numbers must actually be pretty small as we know that only one new Reaper is created at the end of each cycle, created from the remnants of the organic races that most impressed the Reapers at the time. Now while we don’t know how old Harbinger (the first Reaper to have been created) is, the Leviathan of Dis is considered to have been one of the first Reapers created after Harbinger and Leviathan is said to have been nearly 1 billion years old. And since every cycle is about 50,000 years give or take then at the time of ME 3 there must have been around 20,000 Reapers in the Milky Way. Not bad, except that every Tyranid Hive fleet averages at least 1,000,000 bio-ships. So again their superior numbers will more then make up for the Reapers speed advantage.

[Twogunkid]

5 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

The Reapers used the Thorian spores in ME3? Sorry dude I played Mass Effect 3 and that’s just not true. In fact in the email Shepard got from Zhu’s Hope (the colony the Thorian originally enslaved) the people there were actually very successful in resisting the Reapers attack mostly because the lingering effects of the spores allowed them to communicate and coordinate attacks very well. Never mentioned anything about the Reapers using the Thorian spores.

Also the Reapers were only able to indoctrinate the Rachni children and only through surgical implantation and genetic modification. That plus the fact that they were unable to indoctrinate the Rachni Queen seems to suggest that the Rachni were also immune to the brainwashing type indoctrination, just like how I imagine the Tyranids will be.

Actually in ME 2 it was revealed that Reapers are are at least internally created from the raw genetic material of organic races. Remember the Human-Reaper that the Collectors were abducting human colonists in order to create? EDI estimated that millions of humans would be needed to fill that thing up, so if the other Reapers were also filled with millions of organic biomass’s then I’m thinking that’ll be a good meal for the Tyranids to feed on. Also again not only have the Rachni and Thorian also been able to resist indoctrination, but I as I also recall it takes Reapers days if not a week to indoctrinate a host and said host must be inside a Reaper during that process. So the Reapers brainwashing technique definitely has it’s limits.

I’m not sure if the Reapers can actually hit a target from a solar system distance away, but I do concede to the point that the Reapers will have a mobility and speed advantage. However that advantage will be offset by the Tyranids clear numbers advantage. Even if the Reapers are able to take out half the Tyranid forces before they close the distance the remaining Hive Ships will be then sufficient to smother the Reaper forces. How do I know that? Well despite Sovereign’s claims of the Reapers numbers being able to “darken the sky of every world” the truth is the Reapers numbers must actually be pretty small as we know that only one new Reaper is created at the end of each cycle, created from the remnants of the organic races that most impressed the Reapers at the time. Now while we don’t know how old Harbinger (the first Reaper to have been created) is, the Leviathan of Dis is considered to have been one of the first Reapers created after Harbinger and Leviathan is said to have been nearly 1 billion years old. And since every cycle is about 50,000 years give or take then at the time of ME 3 there must have been around 20,000 Reapers in the Milky Way. Not bad, except that every Tyranid Hive fleet averages at least 1,000,000 bio-ships. So again their superior numbers will more then make up for the Reapers speed advantage.

I concede it was a long time since I played ME3 and I was misremembering.

 

The Reapers, though they have an organic core, are much more inorganic. There is not a lot of Biomass within them.

The Rachni Queen resisted, the individual Rachni were indocrinated, so while converting a Nornqueen is an unlikely precedent non-queen Tyranids are fair game.

With things like Oculuses they are not without their own small support vessels. Far more valuable than indocrination is the use of Dragon's teeth to create husks in this fight. Bioship husks are going to be scary.

The numbers advantage is not as big as you think. Consider that the big Sovereign Class Reapers are the only ones made of an individual species. Now consider this Galactic Cycle there are the... Batarians, Humans, Turians, Quarians, Rachni, Krogan, Asari, Turians, Salarians, Hanar, Drell, and Elcor. That's 12 space fairing organic races. That leads me to say the mean number of Reapers created each cycle is certainly more than one. There are also smaller vessels like Reaper Destroyers, Troop Transports, Occulusses, and Processors to churn out husks. In addition to whatever bioships the reapers huskify.  So the Reapers are packing far more ships than your previous estimate.

The Sovereign Class is significantly larger than a Tyranid battleship. A Tyranid Battleship is roughly 600 meters long. The Sovereign Class is roughly 2 kilometers long. That is more than three times the size of the battleship the Nids are deploying. These battleships also take on whole fleets by themselves, and while not invincible, they are fleet busters. Tyranid Cruisers are bigger than Reaper destroyers (~320m > ~160m), but that is comparing different classes of vessel. They are bigger than most Tyranid frigate types, but again they punch far above their weight class and take focused fire from many more and larger vessels to go down.

Lets not sell the Reapers speed advantage short, they are estimated to be able to cover 30 light years in a 24 hour period meaning hit and run on the deploying swarm is an easy and effective option for them. Further, like the Eldar, Imperium, Necrons, and Orks the Reapers are packing shields both of the personal and ship variety. So the Soveriegn classes are also going to be more durable than their Tyranid counterparts. Finally in terms of space arsenal, the Tyranid arsenal is designed primarily for boarding vessels. The Reaper arsenal is designed for slicing though, mountains, cities, and fleets, so their armament is simply better suited for the task at hand.

 

 

 

[Pizzaguy2995]

15 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

The Reapers, though they have an organic core, are much more inorganic. There is not a lot of Biomass within them.

The Rachni Queen resisted, the individual Rachni were indocrinated, so while converting a Nornqueen is an unlikely precedent non-queen Tyranids are fair game.

I mean if each Reaper has the Biomass of 1 million organic beings in their cores then I’d say that’s plenty of food for the Tyranids.

Also again the Indoctrination process usually takes days or not a week to take effect, and the target must either be inside a Reaper or be exposed to a Reaper artifact during that time. Maybe the Reaps can get a handful of the lower class Tyranids brainwashed but not enough to make a difference in the war.

15 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

With things like Oculuses they are not without their own small support vessels. Far more valuable than indocrination is the use of Dragon's teeth to create husks in this fight. Bioship husks are going to be scary.

The numbers advantage is not as big as you think. Consider that the big Sovereign Class Reapers are the only ones made of an individual species. Now consider this Galactic Cycle there are the... Batarians, Humans, Turians, Quarians, Rachni, Krogan, Asari, Turians, Salarians, Hanar, Drell, and Elcor. That's 12 space fairing organic races. That leads me to say the mean number of Reapers created each cycle is certainly more than one. There are also smaller vessels like Reaper Destroyers, Troop Transports, Occulusses, and Processors to churn out husks. In addition to whatever bioships the reapers huskify.  So the Reapers are packing far more ships than your previous estimate.

It was my understanding that the Reapers only harvested the species that most impressed them during each cycle. Wasn’t that why only human colonies were targeted by the collectors during ME 2? Heck they outright ignored a Quarian who was on one of the human colonies cause they were only interested in the humans. So that tells me that not every species gets the “honor” of being used as fuel for a new Reaper, in fact probably only one or two is done each cycle cause the Reaps emphasize quality over quantity. So I’m still convinced that the Reaps numbers are much smaller then what Sovereign tried to sell us. After all he also clearly lied when he said “we have no beginning or no end.” Yeah DLC Leviathan calls bullshit on that statement Sovereign!

15 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

The Sovereign Class is significantly larger than a Tyranid battleship. A Tyranid Battleship is roughly 600 meters long. The Sovereign Class is roughly 2 kilometers long. That is more than three times the size of the battleship the Nids are deploying. These battleships also take on whole fleets by themselves, and while not invincible, they are fleet busters. Tyranid Cruisers are bigger than Reaper destroyers (~320m > ~160m), but that is comparing different classes of vessel. They are bigger than most Tyranid frigate types, but again they punch far above their weight class and take focused fire from many more and larger vessels to go down.

Lets not sell the Reapers speed advantage short, they are estimated to be able to cover 30 light years in a 24 hour period meaning hit and run on the deploying swarm is an easy and effective option for them. Further, like the Eldar, Imperium, Necrons, and Orks the Reapers are packing shields both of the personal and ship variety. So the Soveriegn classes are also going to be more durable than their Tyranid counterparts. Finally in terms of space arsenal, the Tyranid arsenal is designed primarily for boarding vessels. The Reaper arsenal is designed for slicing though, mountains, cities, and fleets, so their armament is simply better suited for the task at hand.

Okay so maybe your Reaps are bigger, faster, and you got some pretty powerful guns, but the Tyranids will more then even the odds with their strong defense, their long history of adapting to any obstacle, and their sheer overwhelming numbers. The Tyranids Hive and Bio-Ships are the greatest Battleships of Warhammer 40k, they might be slow and ungainly but they are designed to take insane amounts of damage and keep going. Their ships are covered by very thick clouds of defensive spores and their armor plating are arguably the most durable metal in the 40k universe, even insanely advanced races like the Imperium and the Necrons defensive plating is no match for it. Also unlike your Reaps who rely heavily on stacking the deck in their favor and on being able to take out their foes leadership before the war even starts, every single new galaxy my Tyrs go into they do so blind. Their foes technology and their weapons are always unknown to them and yet time after time again they are able to adapt, evolve and overcome any and every sort of weapon or method of killing that their foes have and utterly destroy them. They’ve done this since time immemorial to untold numbers of sentient races and that’s mostly cause they’ve learned to endure and survive almost anything the universe can throw at them. Your Reaps will be hard pressed to throw anything at the Tyrs that they haven’t seen before, but the Tyrs technology will definitely be something the Reaps have never had to deal with before. Finally and most importantly, the Tyranids almost limitless reserves will be the ultimate nail in the Reapers coffin. They’ll start off with the superior numbers and they’ll keep getting larger and larger as long as they have biomass to feed on, like say the millions of organic mass the Reaps have in their cores or maybe the husks or other enslaved ground forces that have some organic mass to them. I see this war playing out like an Apollo Creed vs Rocky Balboa fight; your Reapers like Apollo will start out strong landing almost all the punches and keeping Rocky/Tyranids at a distance, but as the fight goes on y’all will start to get worried as you notice Rocky/Tyrs keeps eating shot after shot and refuses to back down. During the final rounds y’all will be exhausted and confused and you’ll make a mistake and get yourself cornered and that’s when we’ll pounce and overwhelm you with our superior numbers and our almost suicidal need to devour anything and everything! The Reapers maybe the Gods of the Milky Way galaxy, but the Tyranids the devils of the entire universe.

[Twogunkid]

Just to be a cheeky blighter, I will point out, Apollo wins in Rocky I.

 

You mention Indoctrination taking a long time. Like the months it takes a Hive fleet to arrive from their note warping in?

You also ignore huskification which is very quick. Dragon's teeth are reusable and the Reapers having bioship husks is a great boon to them. Honestly this will devolve into a slug fest of reserves, but I think the edge goes to the Reapers on that front. As the Dragon's teeth continue to huskify Tyranids and Tyranid ships the Tyranids reclaim less and less biomatter wheras each new husk is a fresh Tyranid turned to the Reaper side. The Tyranids will become worn down as they have to consume the same biomatter over and over.

Further, the Reapers engaging at superior range and with superior speed are capable of whittling down the Tyranid fleet at little risk to themselves. It doesn't matter if Tyranid ships are bristling with deadly boarding parties, if the Tyranids do not get to close to boarding range.

Also while a Reaper is the genetic mass of a million sentient beings it is not the same as a million of said sentient beings. As we see in ME2 there is a lot of liquification involved. They are processed and turned into an orange goo. I do not know how this will hinder or help the Tyranids, but it is noting that it is not traditional biomass and in all likelihood has other aspects to it.

 

I am curious to see how the vote on this one turns out. I think we both have made some nice cases and this was a matchup I wanted since the start in the battle of old god types wiping out life as we know it.

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Tyranids: 2
Reapers: 7