12:17 - Time Lords vs. Reapers

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 17

Time Lords

Slot: The Team's Planetary Invasion Force
Season Wins: 4
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Time Lords at Wikipedia
Official Site: BBC

Reapers

Slot: The Team's Planetary Invasion Force
Season Wins: 3
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Reapers at Wikipedia
Official Site: BioWare

Battle Terrain
Alien Invasion: Battleground planet Earth

[Twogunkid]

In the defense of the Reapers not being wiped out of existence from the start, the Reapers are old enough that the Time Lords simply removing them from existence would have massive effects on the Time Space continuum.

Further, the Reapers on Earth have one thing certainly going for them, which is Rassilion and the Master. Both of them seem like prime targets for indoctrination and both have put forward schemes that could endanger all the Time Lords.

Surely the Doctor would prevent the Reapers from harvesting Earth you say? While the Doctor will certainly be in favor of protecting the inhabitants from the Time Lords and the Reapers, he tends to side against his own people pretty often.

[Culwych1]

2 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

In the defense of the Reapers not being wiped out of existence from the start, the Reapers are old enough that the Time Lords simply removing them from existence would have massive effects on the Time Space continuum.

Further, the Reapers on Earth have one thing certainly going for them, which is Rassilion and the Master. Both of them seem like prime targets for indoctrination and both have put forward schemes that could endanger all the Time Lords.

Surely the Doctor would prevent the Reapers from harvesting Earth you say? While the Doctor will certainly be in favor of protecting the inhabitants from the Time Lords and the Reapers, he tends to side against his own people pretty often.

This is the race of Time Lords, who messed with continuum constantly. They wiped out magic because they didn't like the effects, and introduced some of the fundamental laws of physics. 

The Doctor may not even be a factor in this as we are taking the Time Lords at their prime rather than after the Time War. 

If he was a factor, I'm still convinced that he'd do away with the Reapers before then turning on the Time Lords.

The Reapers just don't have the tech to fight the Time Lord's ability to freeze them in time, blow apart the vast areas of space, or simply imprison them in a different dimension.

[Twogunkid]

So you'll have to forgive me on my limited Time Lords in their prime knowledge. I picked up Doctor Who with Christopher Eckleston and then haven't watched it quite religiously enough to get all of it. I do find, however, Rasillion and the Master would both be prime suspects to be turned to the Reapers' side. Through some misguided idea about using the Reapers themselves they end up like the Illusive Man or Saren and are ultimately enthralled.

For as far as foes of the Doctor go, those two are some of the most dangerous and the Reaperification of any Time Lord tech acquired is a scary thought. The Time Lords are on Earth as well and if The Day of the Doctor is to believed, the freezing of a planet in time would require hundreds of years of calculations from them. In addition, Gallifery High Command holds it as impossible.

 

Also after the time war isn't it supposedly down to just the Doctor and a handful of Daleks?

[Culwych1]

5 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

So you'll have to forgive me on my limited Time Lords in their prime knowledge. I picked up Doctor Who with Christopher Eckleston and then haven't watched it quite religiously enough to get all of it. I do find, however, Rasillion and the Master would both be prime suspects to be turned to the Reapers' side. Through some misguided idea about using the Reapers themselves they end up like the Illusive Man or Saren and are ultimately enthralled.

For as far as foes of the Doctor go, those two are some of the most dangerous and the Reaperification of any Time Lord tech acquired is a scary thought. The Time Lords are on Earth as well and if The Day of the Doctor is to believed, the freezing of a planet in time would require hundreds of years of calculations from them. In addition, Gallifery High Command holds it as impossible.

 

Also after the time war isn't it supposedly down to just the Doctor and a handful of Daleks?

This is the Time Lords in their prime... pre the Time War. They have access to over a million Battle TARDISes that can fire Time Torpedoes which freeze even time travelling vessels in their tracks. 

All Time Lords have telepathic abilities which should prevent them from succumbing to the Reapers - who would first need to get close enough anyway. TARDISes can withstand the force of a black hole so it won't be easy.

The Time Lords also have access to their deadliest arsenal which even the Doctor was scared of. 

During the Time War, both the Daleks and the Time Lords used time travel to reverse entire battles and change the outcomes, that is entirely at the Time Lords disposal in this battle as well.

Here's a bit more about them to give you a flavour. 

[Twogunkid]

Well I may have to concede this one then.

[Peypeypeypey]

I just want to go on-record as saying that the Time Lords running away with this category is a little disappointing to me because they're not really "invaders" in the traditional sense.

[Twogunkid]

The whole not caring about Causality + Time Travel makes this a very difficult category to challenge them in.

[Culwych1]

2 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I just want to go on-record as saying that the Time Lords running away with this category is a little disappointing to me because they're not really "invaders" in the traditional sense.

The brief was "has a fleet of ships and the ability to use them militarily.", hence the choice of Time Lords - but I do kind of get what you mean. That said, a lot of aliens in the Dr Who show could be deemed to be "invaders" but actually are not invading with a space fleet. 

1 hour ago, Twogunkid said:

The whole not caring about Causality + Time Travel makes this a very difficult category to challenge them in.

Agreed, time travel is a bit of a game changer in this category - over and above most traditional space fleets. If by some miracle we do manage to keep CBUB going and there are future tournaments then that probably should be a stipulation - or maybe even a category in itself! Time Travelers fixing things. 

[Twogunkid]

1 hour ago, Culwych1 said:

The brief was "has a fleet of ships and the ability to use them militarily.", hence the choice of Time Lords - but I do kind of get what you mean. That said, a lot of aliens in the Dr Who show could be deemed to be "invaders" but actually are not invading with a space fleet. 

Agreed, time travel is a bit of a game changer in this category - over and above most traditional space fleets. If by some miracle we do manage to keep CBUB going and there are future tournaments then that probably should be a stipulation - or maybe even a category in itself! Time Travelers fixing things. 

Gotta give it to my man Rufus then. Stay cool San Dimas!

[Twogunkid]

I do have one more casuality proof argument to make for the Reapers. The Reapers clear the galaxy for new species which may have at one point included the Time Lords. Wiping the Reapers out could break a fixed point in the Time Lords' own history wiping themselves out of existence and creating a paradox.

 

 

[Culwych1]

11 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

I do have one more casuality proof argument to make for the Reapers. The Reapers clear the galaxy for new species which may have at one point included the Time Lords. Wiping the Reapers out could break a fixed point in the Time Lords' own history wiping themselves out of existence and creating a paradox.

Sadly no. Reapers have never encountered Time Lords and if they did would have been wiped out.

If for the sake of argument we wanted to assume that these both once existed in the same universe then we could safely theorise that the Time Lords did to the Reapers what they did to the Great Vampires - banished them to another universe from which they could not escape. Once there the Reapers were free to carry on as they do. 

[Twogunkid]

2 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Sadly no. Reapers have never encountered Time Lords and if they did would have been wiped out.

If for the sake of argument we wanted to assume that these both once existed in the same universe then we could safely theorise that the Time Lords did to the Reapers what they did to the Great Vampires - banished them to another universe from which they could not escape. Once there the Reapers were free to carry on as they do. 

More that the Reapers wiping out other civilizations might have allowed the rise of the Shobogan race which Time Lords are an off shoot of.

[Culwych1]

2 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

More that the Reapers wiping out other civilizations might have allowed the rise of the Shobogan race which Time Lords are an off shoot of.

Hmmm, sounds like we're both starting to speculate. 

I think we need to base this on the info we have on both of the characters, and on the premise that we have used in all other battles that characters from different worlds/franchises don't know each other. 

[Twogunkid]

1 hour ago, Culwych1 said:

Hmmm, sounds like we're both starting to speculate. 

I think we need to base this on the info we have on both of the characters, and on the premise that we have used in all other battles that characters from different worlds/franchises don't know each other. 

Pictured: What I'm grasping at. I think I pretty firmly have this one lost. Time Travel is kind of a win button.

[Culwych1]

10 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Pictured: What I'm grasping at. I think I pretty firmly have this one lost. Time Travel is kind of a win button.

 

😆😆 I went into this pretty confident with these guys, but you certainly made me work for it!!!

I was feeling like you for the Tamatoa battle 😆

[RiotGear]

I'm not so sure the Time Lords take this.

First we have to establish what is real for them as Dr. Who Canon is a bit muddled.n

There are some statements that suggest that the novels don't share continuity with the tv show.bwe also have some non-tv material that has more or less been ignored or out right contradicted by the tv show itself.

On top of that the right to some elements that have been in the show are no longer held by the BBC, so there canonicity is questionable.

Further much of what we "know" about the Time Lords is hearsay and legend. The Doctor tells us something, but we see no visual evidence of it and it's not like the Doctor is always honest or straight forward.

Truth is the few actual glimpses. Of the Time Lord/Dalek War we see are straight forward generic space combat with pew pew lasers and fairly mundane area effects. Such as broken masonry and people knocked over. 

Daleks have been slowed down by fairly conventional earth militaries and you know stairs:) Point is for all there big talk when we see the Time Lords and there peers fight. They are not rerouting black holes and freezing time, they are shooting Lazer guns at each other, like everybody else.

Further I see no reason why Indoctrination shouldn't work. Pretty much every Time Lord we've ever met has been emotionally and mentally unstable to begin with. Whether they are dealing with PTSD or are narsessistic.

There own pride and arrogance are often there undoing.

Also even if we assume they are going to be lobbing time torpedoes or what have you around. 

They still have to get past the Reapers Kinetic Barriers. They are as far as I can tell physical objects with kinetic mass/energy I see no reason to assume they won't bounce off Reaper shields.

However even if they work. Element Zero/Mass Effect fields allow for FTL travel as such they are already bending space and time. So they may well be able to simply fly out of the time bubble created by the afore mentioned torpedoes.

Biotic using the base concepts allows for teleportation, through barriers. It's seems likely that the same could happen if a ship activated it's ftl drive inside a time bubble.

The Time Lords home universe doesn't have Element Zero. So there is no reason to assume there temporal control extends to it. Infact it can't as it doesn't exist for the.

In other words Reapers have a very real chance of winning this encounter.

[Culwych1]

A few things to unpick here. 

3 hours ago, RiotGear said:

I'm not so sure the Time Lords take this.

First we have to establish what is real for them as Dr. Who Canon is a bit muddled.n

There are some statements that suggest that the novels don't share continuity with the tv show.bwe also have some non-tv material that has more or less been ignored or out right contradicted by the tv show itself.

On top of that the right to some elements that have been in the show are no longer held by the BBC, so there canonicity is questionable.

The comics and books are considered canon - so whilst some inconsistencies exist (as for most media that has been going for nearly 60 years!), the events did take place and the feats hold true. Also remember that they have retconned things years after the fact due to "time travel stuff", which given the nature of the show, makes sense that things that have happened do suddenly change!

3 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Truth is the few actual glimpses. Of the Time Lord/Dalek War we see are straight forward generic space combat with pew pew lasers and fairly mundane area effects. Such as broken masonry and people knocked over. 

Daleks have been slowed down by fairly conventional earth militaries and you know stairs:) Point is for all there big talk when we see the Time Lords and there peers fight. They are not rerouting black holes and freezing time, they are shooting Lazer guns at each other, like everybody else.

1 Dalek ship has canonly shown to have enough power to destory the earth. The glimpses of the Time Lord/Dalek War which I am assuming you are referring to are of a city (Arcadia, so not even the Citadel) at the end of the Time War, where most of all their weaponry had been deployed. What you are describing was some Daleks who had broken through the sky trentches and therefore were deploying their pew pew lasers - which do have quite severe effects. The "quintillions" of Daleks" were still outside and assieging Gallifrey because they hadn't managed to break through. 

For interspecies war - yes - both Time Lords and Daleks used much more devastating weaponry than what we saw in that one episode, and the list of those weapons and effects are well documented (I've shared most already). 

3 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Further I see no reason why Indoctrination shouldn't work. Pretty much every Time Lord we've ever met has been emotionally and mentally unstable to begin with. Whether they are dealing with PTSD or are narsessistic.

There own pride and arrogance are often there undoing.

Not going to argue, most of the Time Lords we've met have indeed been emotionally and mentally unstable - primarily because of the Time War. Most of them have died and come back countless times due to reversal; they've seen a war that just didn't end and in the end complete annihilation for most of them. I'd say that would give most people a bit of mental instability. 

They are definitely proud and arrogant - but the primary reason is that they are so powerful. 

3 hours ago, RiotGear said:

They still have to get past the Reapers Kinetic Barriers. They are as far as I can tell physical objects with kinetic mass/energy I see no reason to assume they won't bounce off Reaper shields.

However even if they work. Element Zero/Mass Effect fields allow for FTL travel as such they are already bending space and time. So they may well be able to simply fly out of the time bubble created by the afore mentioned torpedoes.

Biotic using the base concepts allows for teleportation, through barriers. It's seems likely that the same could happen if a ship activated it's ftl drive inside a time bubble.

The Time Lords home universe doesn't have Element Zero. So there is no reason to assume there temporal control extends to it. Infact it can't as it doesn't exist for the.

In other words Reapers have a very real chance of winning this encounter.

Battle TARDISes have shown to be able to stop a standard TARDIS, which can teleport through time and space, and also travel FTL. It can go intangible as it wonders out of current space and time - and this is a standard TARDIS, not a battle or war TARDIS. 

I'm not sure we can sepculate that TIme Lords temporal control doesn't extend to Element Zero and therefore the Reapers - but in any case, the Time Lords have time travel so could just as easily go back to a stage that Reapers did not have Element Zero and attack them there.

[RiotGear]

1 hour ago, Culwych1 said:

A few things to unpick here. 

The comics and books are considered canon - so whilst some inconsistencies exist (as for most media that has been going for nearly 60 years!), the events did take place and the feats hold true. Also remember that they have retconned things years after the fact due to "time travel stuff", which given the nature of the show, makes sense that things that have happened do suddenly change!

1 Dalek ship has canonly shown to have enough power to destory the earth. The glimpses of the Time Lord/Dalek War which I am assuming you are referring to are of a city (Arcadia, so not even the Citadel) at the end of the Time War, where most of all their weaponry had been deployed. What you are describing was some Daleks who had broken through the sky trentches and therefore were deploying their pew pew lasers - which do have quite severe effects. The "quintillions" of Daleks" were still outside and assieging Gallifrey because they hadn't managed to break through. 

For interspecies war - yes - both Time Lords and Daleks used much more devastating weaponry than what we saw in that one episode, and the list of those weapons and effects are well documented (I've shared most already). 

Not going to argue, most of the Time Lords we've met have indeed been emotionally and mentally unstable - primarily because of the Time War. Most of them have died and come back countless times due to reversal; they've seen a war that just didn't end and in the end complete annihilation for most of them. I'd say that would give most people a bit of mental instability. 

They are definitely proud and arrogant - but the primary reason is that they are so powerful. 

Battle TARDISes have shown to be able to stop a standard TARDIS, which can teleport through time and space, and also travel FTL. It can go intangible as it wonders out of current space and time - and this is a standard TARDIS, not a battle or war TARDIS. 

I'm not sure we can sepculate that TIme Lords temporal control doesn't extend to Element Zero and therefore the Reapers - but in any case, the Time Lords have time travel so could just as easily go back to a stage that Reapers did not have Element Zero and attack them there.

Moffat said in Dr. Who Magazine( issue 482) in 2015. When speaking about the New Adventure novels that they exist in a separate continuity from the show. 

Also once again because the BBC doesn't own the right certain concepts and characters out right. 

Stories that share those characters or concepts with Dr. Who can be made with out the consent or approval of the BBC who hold the primary rights to the universe and originated the franchise. 

In other words no not everything is Canon. Even if Dr. Who Canon is a bit messier than some other franchises. 

What is the source for one Dalek ship destroying the Earth? 

Here is the battle in question. We see Dalek weapons impact with in a few meters of people and the effect is not instant vaporization. Instead Dalek energy weapons toss them around, like a Hollywood grenade.

The length of the time war is not going to change the effect of those weapons.

Weapons that broke through Time Lord defences and are wrecking a Time Lord city.

 

Again when they attack Earth they do very little environmental damage 

And don't have the power to resist getting sucked into portal while a person can resist doing so by holding on tight.

 

Remember the Daleks are empire that brought the Time Lords to there knees. 

Once again for all the big talk when we see these races in action. They tend to be underwhelming.

So we are agreed than. That the Time Lords mental and emotional instability will make them ripe for indoctrination. 

Sure Time Lords can effect elements and technology native to there universe. That doesn't mean anything when dealing with franchises that operate on different mechanics.

Nope the Time Lords can't go back and erase the Reapers. 

This is a simultaneous invasion of Earth. Going back in time before the Reapers arrived or attacking them before they arrive. Would not be simultaneous. 

It would also remove the Time Lords from the battlefield. Which could be considered a loss in itself. 

Also depending on which variation of time travel is in play. Removing the Reapers from the timeline may simply create a separate timeline where they win, but still lost in the original primary time line. 

Remember this is an artificial scenario with set parameters. That dictate that the invasion has to be simultaneous and the first to effectively take the planet wins, regardless of whether the Time Lords can call a mulligan and try again.

[Culwych1]

2 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Moffat said in Dr. Who Magazine( issue 482) in 2015. When speaking about the New Adventure novels that they exist in a separate continuity from the show. 

Also once again because the BBC doesn't own the right certain concepts and characters out right. 

Stories that share those characters or concepts with Dr. Who can be made with out the consent or approval of the BBC who hold the primary rights to the universe and originated the franchise. 

In other words no not everything is Canon. Even if Dr. Who Canon is a bit messier than some other franchises. 

What is the source for one Dalek ship destroying the Earth? 

Here is the battle in question. We see Dalek weapons impact with in a few meters of people and the effect is not instant vaporization. Instead Dalek energy weapons toss them around, like a Hollywood grenade.

The length of the time war is not going to change the effect of those weapons.

Weapons that broke through Time Lord defences and are wrecking a Time Lord city.

 

Again when they attack Earth they do very little environmental damage 

And don't have the power to resist getting sucked into portal while a person can resist doing so by holding on tight.

 

Remember the Daleks are empire that brought the Time Lords to there knees. 

Once again for all the big talk when we see these races in action. They tend to be underwhelming.

So we are agreed than. That the Time Lords mental and emotional instability will make them ripe for indoctrination. 

Sure Time Lords can effect elements and technology native to there universe. That doesn't mean anything when dealing with franchises that operate on different mechanics.

Nope the Time Lords can't go back and erase the Reapers. 

This is a simultaneous invasion of Earth. Going back in time before the Reapers arrived or attacking them before they arrive. Would not be simultaneous. 

It would also remove the Time Lords from the battlefield. Which could be considered a loss in itself. 

Also depending on which variation of time travel is in play. Removing the Reapers from the timeline may simply create a separate timeline where they win, but still lost in the original primary time line. 

Remember this is an artificial scenario with set parameters. That dictate that the invasion has to be simultaneous and the first to effectively take the planet wins, regardless of whether the Time Lords can call a mulligan and try again.

Lots of points here; I'll address a few and may have to return to the others: 

1. Canon

Moffat stated:  It is impossible for a show about a dimension-hopping time traveller to have a canon", laying the foundation for one way for "all stories to be true". Other writers have stated on the record that their published novels are canon - and the comics which a lot of the feats I have referred to also are deemed canon*. This is not something we can debate as most of the authors have agreed that everything can be considered canon and there are entire forums debating this very thing. 

In the simplest terms - we have seen what the TARDIS can do in the shows - and we know that battle TARDISes existed at the peak of the Time War as they were launched against the Daleks. We know at the height of the Time War, over a million TARDISes were launched against the Daleks - so if Time Lords are invading then they have access to their TARDISes. 

2. Time Lords

We absolutely do not agree on the Time Lords being ripe for indoctrination. The Time Lords for this fight are at the height of their power pre the Time War, not after that war. They are the absolute masters of time and space, have natural telepathic abilities, and lay the foundations for the universe itself with their technology. Why would we take the Time Lords after the Time War for this? Do we use Event Horizon after it has blown up, norse gods after they've died at Ragnarok, or characters at their lowest - nope - this is the peak of civilisation. 

3. Simultaneous Invasion

That feels like a reach to state they can't use time travel, so we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. The invasion can be simultaneous, and the Time Lords absolutely do have time travel in their arsenal. Just as the show follows the current timeline whilst hopping back and forth, so to can this happen for a full invasion of the entire race of Time Lords at a given point in time. Sending warriors back in time doesn't remove the million TARDISes that could still be fighting with the Reapers on the ground and in space. 

Summary

As I said, you've made a lot of points but essentially the aim seems to be to try and assume the Time Lords are at their weakest (after the Time War), can't use their time travelling tech (which is the basis for their entire civilisation) for this battle, and that the feats no one has said aren't canon (and that are referenced in the tv series) are suddenly not to be considered. Not sure I can agree with any of those so may have to rest my case on this fight and hope that the votes swing the right way. 

[Pizzaguy2995]

Very good debate guys. Not just for this one either but all your debates are going very well and it’s gonna be hard for me to ultimately choose where to cast my votes each match. Whoever ultimately wins this season will have really earned it!

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Time Lords: 5
Reapers: 3