12:17 - Trevor Belmont vs. Sub-Zero

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 12, ROUND 17

Trevor Belmont

Slot: The Team's Scrappy Fighter
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 2
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Trevor Belmont at Wikipedia
Official Site: Konami

Sub-Zero

Slot: The Team's Scrappy Fighter
Season Wins: 5
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Sub-Zero at Wikipedia
Official Site: Midway

Battle Terrain
Battle Terrain: Frozen Lake

[Culwych1]

I have hoped Sub Zero would pull this scenario from the very beginning! 

A ninja cryomancer...  on ice. This is like a dream come true. 

[Twogunkid]

Well this is certainly a good terrain pull for Sub-Zero, the ice is not really a factor for him, but Trevor certainly has the range advantage with his whips, knives, and combat cross. Considering Trevor can produce flame with the morningstar whip, Sub Zero is going to have to work hard to get to his optimal range. I think Trevor can space this fight right to pull the win.

[Culwych1]

26 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Well this is certainly a good terrain pull for Sub-Zero, the ice is not really a factor for him, but Trevor certainly has the range advantage with his whips, knives, and combat cross. Considering Trevor can produce flame with the morningstar whip, Sub Zero is going to have to work hard to get to his optimal range. I think Trevor can space this fight right to pull the win.

Sub Zero regularly faces opponents who use advanced guns, lasers, rockets and more. He greatest opponent, who he has beaten and trains with, uses fire and the equivalent of a whip (Scorpion).

He'll have no problem closing any distance and then he'll have control over every bit of environment that Trevor is on.

[Twogunkid]

Trevor is used to taking on elemental manipulators as he fights nightcreatures and vampires that can do just that. He also is very familiar with the use of elemental ice as a primary weapon considering his close relationship with Sypha.

Trevor Belmont like most MK characters is a master of weaponry and martial arts, but Trevor has a great many styles of weapons to draw on and he interweaves them to stay unpredictable going from thrown weapon to melee to whip to cross to sword and back means he's going to be more unpredictable than MK characters. The use of multiple weapons at the same time is also a great strength for Trevor who has gone in the series with the use of Wooden Stake+Unarmed+Sword at once, Morning Star + Sword, Morning Star + Combat Cross, Knives + Whip, Knives + whip + unarmed, spear + Vampire Killer Whip, Vampire Killer Whip + Sword, Morning Star + Vampire Killer, Morning Star + Unarmed, Godkiller Sword + Morningstar, Morningstar + Combat Cross, and my personal favorite, Morningstar  + another guy's axe. Trevor brings a varied and unpredictable arsenal to this fight and he uses it creatively.  He uses one weapon to create an opening for the other.

If Earthrealm needs a new champion look no further than Trevor Belmont.

[Culwych1]

1 minute ago, Twogunkid said:

Trevor is used to taking on elemental manipulators as he fights nightcreatures and vampires that can do just that. He also is very familiar with the use of elemental ice as a primary weapon considering his close relationship with Sypha.

Trevor Belmont like most MK characters is a master of weaponry and martial arts, but Trevor has a great many styles of weapons to draw on and he interweaves them to stay unpredictable going from thrown weapon to melee to whip to cross to sword and back means he's going to be more unpredictable than MK characters. The use of multiple weapons at the same time is also a great strength for Trevor who has gone in the series with the use of Wooden Stake+Unarmed+Sword at once, Morning Star + Sword, Morning Star + Combat Cross, Knives + Whip, Knives + whip + unarmed, spear + Vampire Killer Whip, Vampire Killer Whip + Sword, Morning Star + Vampire Killer, Morning Star + Unarmed, Godkiller Sword + Morningstar, Morningstar + Combat Cross, and my personal favorite, Morningstar  + another guy's axe. Trevor brings a varied and unpredictable arsenal to this fight and he uses it creatively.  He uses one weapon to create an opening for the other.

If Earthrealm needs a new champion look no further than Trevor Belmont.

I don't see how Trevor brings a more varied style or arsenal to the fight. There is every conceivable weapon in MK - from 4 armed monster punches, to rocket launching cyborgs, to weapon carrying gunslinger, to teleporting lightning gods, to 21st century machine guns, to spear whip throwing undead ninjas, to soul sucking sorcerors. I'm sure we could find a lot more examples. 

Everything Trevor can bring to the fight is something Sub Zero has faced or knows about. 

And he's never faced anyone who could simply destroy every part of the surface apart from the ground he's walking on.

Trevor may not even get to use a weapon if he's suddenly got nowhere to even stand.

 

[Twogunkid]

My point is that Trevor is using more weapons simultaneously than any MK character's arsenal.

[Culwych1]

2 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

My point is that Trevor is using more weapons simultaneously than any MK character's arsenal.

Hmm maybe but I'll have to think on that- I'm trying to think of MK characters during fights - Sonya for example employs quite a range of weapons in her move set, and Shang Tsung can use almost all of them in one fight. 

But in any case, my main point is that Trevor could have rocket launchers and be able to shoot lightning out of his hands and he'd still probably not get a chance to use them as Sub-Zero could turn the ice he's standing on to shards that pierce his body.

[Culwych1]

This is the type of thing he can do when he's not on a frozen lake (by creating ice out of the moisture in the air)...

 

[Peypeypeypey]

I'm just going to say, generally, that Sub-Zero has been way overpraised in this category. Both Sub-Zeros canonically have some utterly embarrassing losses to people who wouldn't even crack a win if they themselves were in this category, and I think his brutality makes people think he's more skilled and dangerous than he is. A mixture of people overestimating him and him getting somewhat lucky in his pulls means his score is way higher than it should be, in my opinion

[Culwych1]

26 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I'm just going to say, generally, that Sub-Zero has been way overpraised in this category. Both Sub-Zeros canonically have some utterly embarrassing losses to people who wouldn't even crack a win if they themselves were in this category, and I think his brutality makes people think he's more skilled and dangerous than he is. A mixture of people overestimating him and him getting somewhat lucky in his pulls means his score is way higher than it should be, in my opinion

Perhaps... but on a frozen lake, with all his powers, experience and brutality, do you think he can win against Trevor?

[Twogunkid]

17 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I'm just going to say, generally, that Sub-Zero has been way overpraised in this category. Both Sub-Zeros canonically have some utterly embarrassing losses to people who wouldn't even crack a win if they themselves were in this category, and I think his brutality makes people think he's more skilled and dangerous than he is. A mixture of people overestimating him and him getting somewhat lucky in his pulls means his score is way higher than it should be, in my opinion

Sub-Zero I's Record:

MK: Kills the guy who would become Scorpion, is then killed by Scorpion

Sub-Zero II's Record

MK II: Loses to Scorpion

MK III: Loses to Sektor and Cyrax

MK IV: Loses to Scorpion

Deadly Alliance: Beats Sektor

Armageddon: Beats Noob Saibot and Smoke

MK X: Beats Sektor again, makes amends with Scorpion

MK 11: Beats his pupil Frost, indecisive fight with Scorpion.

 

Seems like a flaming whip is a good choice of weapon against Sub-Zero

[Culwych1]

6 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Sub-Zero I's Record:

MK: Kills the guy who would become Scorpion, is then killed by Scorpion

Sub-Zero II's Record

MK II: Loses to Scorpion

MK III: Loses to Sektor and Cyrax

MK IV: Loses to Scorpion

Deadly Alliance: Beats Sektor

Armageddon: Beats Noob Saibot and Smoke

MK X: Beats Sektor again, makes amends with Scorpion

MK 11: Beats his pupil Frost, indecisive fight with Scorpion.

 

Seems like a flaming whip is a good choice of weapon against Sub-Zero

You've missed quite a few fights there. And also some of the comics and other media. But his powers speak for themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the Netflix show and Trevor was one of the best things about it, and he's definitely no slouch - but on a frozen lake there are few who could stand against a cryomancer!

[Twogunkid]

1 hour ago, Culwych1 said:

You've missed quite a few fights there. And also some of the comics and other media. But his powers speak for themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the Netflix show and Trevor was one of the best things about it, and he's definitely no slouch - but on a frozen lake there are few who could stand against a cryomancer!

I have read exactly zero Mortal Kombat comics, so I cannot speak to them.

 

However, SubZero loses fights in Tundra in the MK trailer and while not a kanon fight, it does clearly establish he has limits even with a big terrain advantage.

[Culwych1]

6 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

I have read exactly zero Mortal Kombat comics, so I cannot speak to them.

 

However, SubZero loses fights in Tundra in the MK trailer and while not a kanon fight, it does clearly establish he has limits even with a big terrain advantage.

As you say non kanon, and the trailer for the following game had a young Scorpion cutting Raiden, god of thunder, in half. 

All those trailers are just to showcase Scorpion.

[Twogunkid]

Subzero is clearly getting showcased as well, but he is lesser to Scorpion based on their head to head record in canon and the devs set that showcase fight in the snow for Subby and still said it would be better for Scorpion to win.

[Peypeypeypey]

13 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

Perhaps... but on a frozen lake, with all his powers, experience and brutality, do you think he can win against Trevor?

I don't actually think that the setting helps Sub-Zero as much as you think it does. I can't really find any feats, scans, or evidence of him doing anything like opening up already-existing ice under someone so they fall through a lake or whatever. He can generate ice, and has very limited manipulation of ice, but he's not a waterbender. Mostly, he makes weapons and freezes people, but despite being able to do that, he's lost fair and square to people who aren't all that powerful.

With all that said, I've only seen the first two seasons of the Castlevania show, and judging just based on that I think Sub-Zero still has a good chance of winning. I'm not sure if he gets way stronger in the last two seasons, which is a distinct possibility, but when up against his strongest opponents in the first two seasons, he tends to not do that well. Alucard and Dracula both beat him, and while he does have impressive wins under his belt, it seems reasonable that Sub-Zero could get some wins in. It depends on how much better he gets in the last two seasons I reckon 

[Twogunkid]

7 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I don't actually think that the setting helps Sub-Zero as much as you think it does. I can't really find any feats, scans, or evidence of him doing anything like opening up already-existing ice under someone so they fall through a lake or whatever. He can generate ice, and has very limited manipulation of ice, but he's not a waterbender. Mostly, he makes weapons and freezes people, but despite being able to do that, he's lost fair and square to people who aren't all that powerful.

With all that said, I've only seen the first two seasons of the Castlevania show, and judging just based on that I think Sub-Zero still has a good chance of winning. I'm not sure if he gets way stronger in the last two seasons, which is a distinct possibility, but when up against his strongest opponents in the first two seasons, he tends to not do that well. Alucard and Dracula both beat him, and while he does have impressive wins under his belt, it seems reasonable that Sub-Zero could get some wins in. It depends on how much better he gets in the last two seasons I reckon 

Spoilers below

 

 

 

Trevor takes on death and wins in S4.

 

[Peypeypeypey]

3 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Spoilers below

 

 

 

Trevor takes on death and wins in S4.

 

That can mean a lot of things, though. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's probably got some kind of magical weapon/McGuffin that lets him win, because it's a huge jump from "unable to beat a strong vampire" to "literally killing Death." Plus, in the games at least, Death is usually depicted as being subservient to Dracula, for some reason, so that might not even be all that impressive (although, if he had beaten Dracula one-on-one, I reckon he could handle Sub-Zero)

[Twogunkid]

6 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

That can mean a lot of things, though. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's probably got some kind of magical weapon/McGuffin that lets him win, because it's a huge jump from "unable to beat a strong vampire" to "literally killing Death." Plus, in the games at least, Death is usually depicted as being subservient to Dracula, for some reason, so that might not even be all that impressive (although, if he had beaten Dracula one-on-one, I reckon he could handle Sub-Zero)

He tanks and harries death till he does go in with a sword made by a mad mage with the idea of a suicide pact with god and connects with it. He does survive the resulting explosion.

If Trevor had 1v1'd Dracula, he'd be too powerful for this category by a longshot.

[Culwych1]

1 hour ago, Twogunkid said:

He tanks and harries death till he does go in with a sword made by a mad mage with the idea of a suicide pact with god and connects with it. He does survive the resulting explosion.

If Trevor had 1v1'd Dracula, he'd be too powerful for this category by a longshot.

That was an impressive scene - and did showcase just how skilled Trevor is - but he did win the fight by ultimately using a weapon that insta-killed Death. It's been a while since I watched the Netlflix series but if I recall correctly it only took one cut with the knife/sword thing to kill Death? And wasn't he being helped somehow by the mage with a key or something. Great series - no idea why I can remember so little of the ending lol. 

He's not going to have the luxury of a one-shot kill with a skilled fighter like Sub-Zero however. 

[Twogunkid]

1 hour ago, Culwych1 said:

That was an impressive scene - and did showcase just how skilled Trevor is - but he did win the fight by ultimately using a weapon that insta-killed Death. It's been a while since I watched the Netlflix series but if I recall correctly it only took one cut with the knife/sword thing to kill Death? And wasn't he being helped somehow by the mage with a key or something. Great series - no idea why I can remember so little of the ending lol. 

He's not going to have the luxury of a one-shot kill with a skilled fighter like Sub-Zero however. 

The real take away from Death and the whole insanely long climax that was the finale (to recall we get Trevor vs Night creatures in sewer, Trevor  vs Ratko, Trevor, Sypha, and Alucard vs Vampires & Night creatures including a "dragon", Trevor vs Vampires & Night creatures, Trevor vs a Mummy, Trevor, Sypha, and Alucard vs Vampire Generals, Trevor, Sypha, and Alucard vs Dragan, Trevor vs St. Germain's Barrier and Dracula Rebus, and then Trevor vs Death. All without a break. It is understandable to forget some of it.

 

Trevor tanks a lot of hits through that series of fights and keeps on swinging. Trevor's beyond belief durability is what should give him an edge

To the Death Fight, Trevor wails on him with the Morning Star for a good 3 to 4 minutes while taking a battering from Death while Death destroys a good chunk of Dracula's castle. Despite this and taking several hits, he evades fatal blows and jumps about on debris to land the hit with the Godkiller sword. The explosion occurs and Trevor survives and is teleported away by St. Germain.

 

[Culwych1]

10 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

The real take away from Death and the whole insanely long climax that was the finale (to recall we get Trevor vs Night creatures in sewer, Trevor  vs Ratko, Trevor, Sypha, and Alucard vs Vampires & Night creatures including a "dragon", Trevor vs Vampires & Night creatures, Trevor vs a Mummy, Trevor, Sypha, and Alucard vs Vampire Generals, Trevor, Sypha, and Alucard vs Dragan, Trevor vs St. Germain's Barrier and Dracula Rebus, and then Trevor vs Death. All without a break. It is understandable to forget some of it.

 

Trevor tanks a lot of hits through that series of fights and keeps on swinging. Trevor's beyond belief durability is what should give him an edge

To the Death Fight, Trevor wails on him with the Morning Star for a good 3 to 4 minutes while taking a battering from Death while Death destroys a good chunk of Dracula's castle. Despite this and taking several hits, he evades fatal blows and jumps about on debris to land the hit with the Godkiller sword. The explosion occurs and Trevor survives and is teleported away by St. Germain.

That's it! Yes..  damn what a brilliant show that was. That demonologist character who raised him own army against and fought that necromancer was simply amazing. (I realise I should google all these names but am on a lazy streak lol).

I'm not taking anything away from Trevor, but Sub Zero has been fighting consistently for most of his life and the number of canon fights throughout his time, games and comics rival anything shown by Trevor.

I'm the end we could argue that they are closely matched in terms of skills, but that is where the environment absolutely does play a factor. Sub Zeros power set is clearly that he can control ice, even if that means creating it from the very air around him. From walls to weapons to clones of himself  we have seen him shape it to his whim. He literally has the entire surface of this fight to use as he pleases.

[Peypeypeypey]

22 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

I'm the end we could argue that they are closely matched in terms of skills, but that is where the environment absolutely does play a factor. Sub Zeros power set is clearly that he can control ice, even if that means creating it from the very air around him. From walls to weapons to clones of himself  we have seen him shape it to his whim. He literally has the entire surface of this fight to use as he pleases.

Again though, I can't think of or find a single instance of Sub-Zero manipulating ice that's already in the environment to attack an opponent. All of the feats in his RT are just him shooting projectiles or making weapons. "Controlling ice" doesn't mean he's a waterbender. He'll be at an advantage just because he's very used to fighting on ice and is able to use that to his advantage, but I don't think it's the game changing auto-win you seem to

[Culwych1]

15 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Again though, I can't think of or find a single instance of Sub-Zero manipulating ice that's already in the environment to attack an opponent. All of the feats in his RT are just him shooting projectiles or making weapons. "Controlling ice" doesn't mean he's a waterbender. He'll be at an advantage just because he's very used to fighting on ice and is able to use that to his advantage, but I don't think it's the game changing auto-win you seem to