13:5 - Santa Claus (Nikamund) vs. Dracula

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 13, ROUND 5

Santa Claus (Nikamund)

Slot: The Team's Christmas Themed Character
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Santa Claus (Nikamund) at this Wiki
Official Site: Universal

Dracula

Slot: The Team's Horror Icon
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Dracula at this Wiki
Official Site: Estate Of Bram Stoker

Battle Terrain
Christmas Vs. Halloween: Therapy

[Twogunkid]

There's no reforming the OG Drac

[RakaiThwei]

I'm gonna back my man Santa Claus here. The fun used to be a Viking raider who plundered and pillaged villages with his war hammer, Skull Crusher and his Viking skills saw him through one terrible Christmas.

I think he can appeal to whatever is left of Dracula's humanity... I mean Dracula wasn't just a blood thirsty monster, he had feelings for Mina Harker. If Santa can reach Dracula  job done.

If he can't... well, Nikamund has to do it the hard way.

[Twogunkid]

Dracula is a butcher even when he was a human. Appealing to his humanity ain't gonna fly.

[RakaiThwei]

3 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Dracula is a butcher even when he was a human. Appealing to his humanity ain't gonna fly.

Only because he was defending his country from the Turks after they had his father killed, took him and his brother Radu against their will for many years, and when Dracula was allowed to leave, he pretty much took extreme measures against the Turks to keep his rightful kingdom protected and to no longer pay tribute to the sultan Mehmed. Hell, Dracula being seen as a monster is a certain point of view, the man is seen as a hero in Romania.

And before anyone comments, let it be said that even the Bram Stoker Dracula was based partly off of Vlad Tepes. Hell, the whole reason he became a Vampire was because his beloved wife prior to when he was human committed suicide when messengers from the Catholic church told his wife that he died in battle, and she went onto commit suicide, and when he came back-- he found out what had happened, renounced the Catholic church and denounced God. That's when he became a Vampire.

So even when he was human, the man had an anchor, and that was his wife. He even tries to reconnect with that small hope and whatever human need for love and warmth he could get by getting with Mina Harker, who according to my knowledge of the story, is the reincarnation of his previous wife.

So Dracula has a small, smidgeon of humanity whether you want to admit it or not.

Santa, or Nikamund the Red-- is also someone who's history is BLOODSTAINED, as he was a Viking Raider according to his own backstory in Violent Night as he explained to little Trudy. He's said he's done bad things, he's plundered and killed. He KNOWS that darkness of war, because he's committed atrocities, he KNOWS the same darkness that dwells in the hearts of human beings in war that Dracula does, the only difference between him and Dracula, was that he reformed and became Santa.

You can see that clip here.

And Santa has a list, he's checked it twice, he knows if you're naught or nice... And if we take Santa lore as solid fact for this character... as we do know he has a nice and naughty list in Violent Night, and he knows people by their history as evidenced when he confronted several terrorists and even John Leguizamo's character, Jimmy Martinez aka Mr. Scrooge, he knew he let that kid down but he couldn't interfere with his life because that's not what Santa does.

However, given this challenge... I think that Santa might be able to do the impossible here.

He might have a gift for Dracula. Maybe it's something belonging to Dracula's previous wife somewhere in that magic sack he could pull out, and he could convince Dracula to maybe change his ways in exchange for the gift, and maybe exchange some war stories and how similar the two are but they took different paths.

[Twogunkid]

Let's take Dracula step by step.

Even in the context of Turkish invasions of Romania, the slaughter was a war crime by Medieval Standards. He then willingly damns himself. The renouncing of God and the willful choice of damnation would preclude rehabilitation.

Dracula's intention towards Mina is not one of human kindness or love but of rapaciousness. His hunger is of a carnal nature. Mina is a target of his hungers and I unfortunately mean in multiple senses of the word. Dracula hunts Mina in advance once he discovers her existence with Jonathan visiting his castle. Mina's no chance of redeeming Dracula one need only look at the brides or Lucy to see what Dracula's intentions are.

Lucy then preys on children as the Bloofer Lady. Dracula has no qualms about innocents being harmed and suffering, and not just innocents, children specifically he is ok with.

He singlehandedly feasts upon the crew of the Demeter. He strings Jonathan out over a long period as a food source. He has Renfield as a mad minion of his.

Further this Santa seems inclined to use violence against those who threaten or harm children. Although this Santa can convince some henchmen he is real and to let him go, he doesn't do that for the mercenary captains of the movie. Dracula would not be someone this Santa would be willing to talk to.

Finally Dracula glories in war and bloodshed as he tells Jonathan, "the warlike days are over. Blood is too precious a thing in these days of dishonourable peace; and the glories of the great races are as a tale that is told.” (Dracula Ch. 3). This after he has given Jonathan a litany of the blood he has spilled. Dracula has no desire for reform. There is nothing within his heart to desire reformation the only option is to put a stake through it.

[RakaiThwei]

2 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Even in the context of Turkish invasions of Romania, the slaughter was a war crime by Medieval Standards. He then willingly damns himself. The renouncing of God and the willful choice of damnation would preclude rehabilitation.

As far as I am aware, there was no Geneva Convention which laid down military laws and rules of engagement for war. Vlad Tepes definitely did some nasty things, I'm not going to argue that there but he did what he needed to do in order to protect his kingdom from the Ottoman empire and if it meant scaring the crap out of his enemies, or even so much as making a point of respect (i.e. the Turkish ambassadors who refused to be respectful by removing their turbans in his court)-- so be it. He did what he needed to do for his country, and again, in the eyes of the Romanian people-- he was seen as a hero.

Do the ends justify the means? In this case... it depends on who you ask. Especially the Romanian people.

As for willingly damming himself, and renouncing God.... As far as I know, Vlad Tepes needed to get whatever support he could to back his cause and he sided with a different church that wasn't under the Catholic denomination. This pissed off the Catholic church and they did whatever they could to get rid of Vlad Tepes. And this is just looking into the historical context. But accounting that into the Bram Stoker novel, and maybe it's Francis Ford Coppola adaptation (this is the one I am most familiar with but it's been YEARS since I saw it), who told his previous wife that he died in battle and lead to her suicide? Messengers from the Catholic church from what I remember. And when he gets back, this is what more or less causes him to denounce God and become what he is.

Case in point... There was a lot of fuckery involved from the Catholic Church and their fuckery is what lead to the creation of the Vampire we know.

15 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Further this Santa seems inclined to use violence against those who threaten or harm children. Although this Santa can convince some henchmen he is real and to let him go, he doesn't do that for the mercenary captains of the movie. Dracula would not be someone this Santa would be willing to talk to.

Cause they're trying to kill him. They don't even really know he's Santa Clause and even Jimmy Martinez has a hard time believing that until the very end of the movie, and a lot of his henchmen more or less also have a hard time until Santa points out all of the things which they wanted for Christmas pasts and the bad things that they have done. Santa didn't even want to fight these henchmen, he wanted to forget the things he did as Nikamund the Red, everything he did was out of self-defense or to protect Trudy.

And then there's the case of Jimmy Martinez, who's lead a life of crime and done many robberies of the rich and he's got blood on his hands-- unintentional and intentional. Jimmy's accidentally killed his grandfather by spooking him and causing him to fall down the stairs, breaking his neck and then was arrested on Christmas and vowed to ruin Christmas for everyone. What we know of Jimmy Martinez between his arrest and the events of Violent Night, is left to speculation but it's definitely confirmed that he's been doing what he's been doing for a long time, and his team of mercenaries have been at this for a long time-- even going as far as to plan their heist on the rich family in Violent Night.

Santa has tried to reason with Jimmy, despite all the horrible things he's done in his life... But Jimmy wasn't having it solely because he hates Christmas, and who is the living embodiment of Christmas? Santa.

Now... does Dracula have any grudges against Christmas? Probably. I don't know. That's not explored in the Bram Stoker novel or the Francis Ford Coppola adaptation.

But let's assume that Santa DOES have to interact with Dracula... Let's assume that he DOES have to talk to him... Yeah, Dracula's done some terrible things and children may have been indirectly (you mentioned Lucy) involved with Dracula's shenanigans but then again, a similar case was with Jimmy Martinez's heist. And Santa still tried to reason with Jimmy and his henchmen from what I remember of the movie, if only to disengage and de-escalate until he was pushed to recall his Viking spirit. I see Nikamund trying to at least speak with Dracula.

If anything... Dracula and Nikamund are VERY similar to one another. Hell, they might even see kindred spirits of one another-- although being the polar opposites of one another.

Both seemingly long lived (or undead in Dracula's case), both have seen the atrocities of war, Dracula has impaled people, Nikamund has crushed open people's skulls, and both seemingly enjoyed it for a long time-- even Trudy asked Santa why he did it, and he replied back with "Because I was mean". So he knows the darkness that Vlad went, the only difference between them is that they both went down different paths.

I definitely see Santa appealing to the similarities between himself and Dracula, and Dracula... might even have some respect for someone who is like him if the polar opposite, he might even be intrigued enough to actually take the time and listen.

I mean, even Dracula has to be a man of respect-- enough to maybe even give the courtesy of giving Nikamund the opportunity to speak.

Even Dracula has some modicum of respect.

[Twogunkid]

6 minutes ago, RakaiThwei said:

As far as I am aware, there was no Geneva Convention which laid down military laws and rules of engagement for war. Vlad Tepes definitely did some nasty things, I'm not going to argue that there but he did what he needed to do in order to protect his kingdom from the Ottoman empire and if it meant scaring the crap out of his enemies, or even so much as making a point of respect (i.e. the Turkish ambassadors who refused to be respectful by removing their turbans in his court)-- so be it. He did what he needed to do for his country, and again, in the eyes of the Romanian people-- he was seen as a hero.

Do the ends justify the means? In this case... it depends on who you ask. Especially the Romanian people.

As for willingly damming himself, and renouncing God.... As far as I know, Vlad Tepes needed to get whatever support he could to back his cause and he sided with a different church that wasn't under the Catholic denomination. This pissed off the Catholic church and they did whatever they could to get rid of Vlad Tepes. And this is just looking into the historical context. But accounting that into the Bram Stoker novel, and maybe it's Francis Ford Coppola adaptation (this is the one I am most familiar with but it's been YEARS since I saw it), who told his previous wife that he died in battle and lead to her suicide? Messengers from the Catholic church from what I remember. And when he gets back, this is what more or less causes him to denounce God and become what he is.

Case in point... There was a lot of fuckery involved from the Catholic Church and their fuckery is what lead to the creation of the Vampire we know.

Cause they're trying to kill him. They don't even really know he's Santa Clause and even Jimmy Martinez has a hard time believing that until the very end of the movie, and a lot of his henchmen more or less also have a hard time until Santa points out all of the things which they wanted for Christmas pasts and the bad things that they have done. Santa didn't even want to fight these henchmen, he wanted to forget the things he did as Nikamund the Red, everything he did was out of self-defense or to protect Trudy.

And then there's the case of Jimmy Martinez, who's lead a life of crime and done many robberies of the rich and he's got blood on his hands-- unintentional and intentional. Jimmy's accidentally killed his grandfather by spooking him and causing him to fall down the stairs, breaking his neck and then was arrested on Christmas and vowed to ruin Christmas for everyone. What we know of Jimmy Martinez between his arrest and the events of Violent Night, is left to speculation but it's definitely confirmed that he's been doing what he's been doing for a long time, and his team of mercenaries have been at this for a long time-- even going as far as to plan their heist on the rich family in Violent Night.

Santa has tried to reason with Jimmy, despite all the horrible things he's done in his life... But Jimmy wasn't having it solely because he hates Christmas, and who is the living embodiment of Christmas? Santa.

Now... does Dracula have any grudges against Christmas? Probably. I don't know. That's not explored in the Bram Stoker novel or the Francis Ford Coppola adaptation.

But let's assume that Santa DOES have to interact with Dracula... Let's assume that he DOES have to talk to him... Yeah, Dracula's done some terrible things and children may have been indirectly (you mentioned Lucy) involved with Dracula's shenanigans but then again, a similar case was with Jimmy Martinez's heist. And Santa still tried to reason with Jimmy and his henchmen from what I remember of the movie, if only to disengage and de-escalate until he was pushed to recall his Viking spirit. I see Nikamund trying to at least speak with Dracula.

If anything... Dracula and Nikamund are VERY similar to one another. Hell, they might even see kindred spirits of one another-- although being the polar opposites of one another.

Both seemingly long lived (or undead in Dracula's case), both have seen the atrocities of war, Dracula has impaled people, Nikamund has crushed open people's skulls, and both seemingly enjoyed it for a long time-- even Trudy asked Santa why he did it, and he replied back with "Because I was mean". So he knows the darkness that Vlad went, the only difference between them is that they both went down different paths.

I definitely see Santa appealing to the similarities between himself and Dracula, and Dracula... might even have some respect for someone who is like him if the polar opposite, he might even be intrigued enough to actually take the time and listen.

I mean, even Dracula has to be a man of respect-- enough to maybe even give the courtesy of giving Nikamund the opportunity to speak.

Even Dracula has some modicum of respect.

In regards to Dracula's crimes in the time

"Over the following days Mehmed regrouped his forces and marched to the fortress of Targoviste, where there worst horror of the whole campaign waited for them.

Vlad and his men had erected a massive forest that covered a square mile outside the fortress. It was made of 20,000 sharpened stakes, and each stake had at least on body impaled on it. While many were prisoners of war, some were women and children. The worst were the mothers whose babies were attached to their bodies. Birds had made nests in some of the corpses."

I am by no means an expert on the codes of chivalry in the middle ages, but women and children are definitely not on the ok targets list.

Further, even if we say, "ok excusing all the warcrimes against the Turks"... (which we should not), he launched atrocities on his own people. There was a purge of Wallachian Boyars and Transylvanian Saxons in his rule. Further, Vlad imprisoned the Sultans envoys which definitely led to a rapid deterioration of relations between the two.

 

The wife thing is a creation of Francis Ford Copolla or at the very least I didn't find it in my quick skim over the first few chapters of Dracula while finding the quote about blood in the days of dishonorable peace.

I don't think Dracula would attack on sight. I do think he would listen to Santa, but Dracula is just as charming if not more so. His words have power and he lures many into madness and death.

[Macklemore]

Isn't this Santa Claus a cynical and disillusioned man who has lost his joy and his purpose in life? Why would he ever try to get Dracula rehabilitated when he hates humanity for an ever growing naughty list, out of everyone in the world, *why* would Dracula be the one that he actually tries to help? I just don't see it.

[Twogunkid]

11 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

Isn't this Santa Claus a cynical and disillusioned man who has lost his joy and his purpose in life? Why would he ever try to get Dracula rehabilitated when he hates humanity for an ever growing naughty list, out of everyone in the world, *why* would Dracula be the one that he actually tries to help? I just don't see it.

EDIT: THIS WAS MEANT TO GO ON THE GHOST OF CHRISTMAS PAST ONE, AND I AM AN IDIOT.

[RakaiThwei]

20 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

Isn't this Santa Claus a cynical and disillusioned man who has lost his joy and his purpose in life? Why would he ever try to get Dracula rehabilitated when he hates humanity for an ever growing naughty list, out of everyone in the world, *why* would Dracula be the one that he actually tries to help? I just don't see it.

By the end of Violent Night, he had his faith in humanity restored right after being literally resurrected by Trudy and her family via their belief.

Christmas magic.

[Peypeypeypey]

I think this match largely depends on the version of Dracula. A lot of them are pretty much irredeemable monsters, but some of them, like in the Castlevania show and Hellsing, are definitely capable of changing. If it's the classic book version then I'm not 100% sure he can be redeemed

[Twogunkid]

10 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I think this match largely depends on the version of Dracula. A lot of them are pretty much irredeemable monsters, but some of them, like in the Castlevania show and Hellsing, are definitely capable of changing. If it's the classic book version then I'm not 100% sure he can be redeemed

Castlevania Dracula and Hellsing Alucard are definitely different animals.

[RakaiThwei]

21 minutes ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I think this match largely depends on the version of Dracula. A lot of them are pretty much irredeemable monsters, but some of them, like in the Castlevania show and Hellsing, are definitely capable of changing. If it's the classic book version then I'm not 100% sure he can be redeemed

Given the picture in the match, it's likely the Hammer films Christopher Lee version... Which I have never seen.

But then again, that's probably up to IKA.

3 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

In regards to Dracula's crimes in the time

"Over the following days Mehmed regrouped his forces and marched to the fortress of Targoviste, where there worst horror of the whole campaign waited for them.

Vlad and his men had erected a massive forest that covered a square mile outside the fortress. It was made of 20,000 sharpened stakes, and each stake had at least on body impaled on it. While many were prisoners of war, some were women and children. The worst were the mothers whose babies were attached to their bodies. Birds had made nests in some of the corpses."

I am by no means an expert on the codes of chivalry in the middle ages, but women and children are definitely not on the ok targets list.

Further, even if we say, "ok excusing all the warcrimes against the Turks"... (which we should not), he launched atrocities on his own people. There was a purge of Wallachian Boyars and Transylvanian Saxons in his rule. Further, Vlad imprisoned the Sultans envoys which definitely led to a rapid deterioration of relations between the two.

I don't think we're going to get anywhere by comparing Vlad Tepes' war crimes in the Middle Ages, and speculating what kind of things Nikamund has done if we look at the things which the Viking raiders have done as they swept across Scandanavia and the rest of the Netherlands. But we do know that the Vikings were pretty nasty and have done things which are reprehensible such as grabbing and snatching women up to do God knows what.

We do know that Nikamund has seen his share and committed some bad things during his time with the Viking Raiders.

3 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

The wife thing is a creation of Francis Ford Copolla or at the very least I didn't find it in my quick skim over the first few chapters of Dracula while finding the quote about blood in the days of dishonorable peace.

Okay, I'll give you that the wife thing was a creation of Francis Ford Copolla. I have no reason to disbelieve you.

3 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

I don't think Dracula would attack on sight. I do think he would listen to Santa, but Dracula is just as charming if not more so. His words have power and he lures many into madness and death.

We agree that Dracula wouldn't attack on sight. He might even come to RESPECT someone like Nikamund.

One would even have to ask would he have ANY reason to harm someone who really has no quarrel with him outside of the need of having to satiate himself with blood? Probably not. If anything, I see Dracula being quite surprised in the many years he's lived, coming across another seemingly immortal being similar to himself but one who hasn't sacrificed his humanity... Now, we don't know how Nikamund has become seemingly immortal (he can be killed, but he can also be resurrected by belief in goodness, kindness, and the Christmas spirit-- even by a SMALL number of people) but I would think that Dracula would be quite interested at the similarities and differences. Which brings me to my next point...

52 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

Isn't this Santa Claus a cynical and disillusioned man who has lost his joy and his purpose in life? Why would he ever try to get Dracula rehabilitated when he hates humanity for an ever growing naughty list, out of everyone in the world, *why* would Dracula be the one that he actually tries to help? I just don't see it.

Nikamund definitely fell under the trope of the cynical Santa, as does Chris Cringle from the movie Fatman, except the difference between Nikamund and Cringle-- is that Nikamund has had his faith restored in humanity after having been resurrected by the belief of a small group of people-- namely Trudy's family. This is confirmed at the end of the movie, and also brings something up to question...

How long has Dracula gone without experiencing genuine kindness given to him? Probably for many centuries, and he's only had nothing but his lust for blood and contempt for humanity fueling him in his rather extremely dismal and lonely existence.

Now, he comes across another seemingly immortal being and ponders how both who have followed similar paths, diverged and how someone like Nikamund retains his humanity, and even questions how he can have faith in humanity after so much cynicism and greed saturates the world.

And what would happen if Dracula is shown genuine kindness, from another being quite similar to himself? We don't know, but as someone myself who's grown quite cynical to other human beings after working in retail, I've had genuine moments of kindness which moved me... Never underestimate the power of kindness.

In fact, sometimes it just takes one person... and an act of kindness to reach someone.

Corny as it sounds... It's sometimes quite true.

[Twogunkid]

We know how long since Dracula has recieved standard human interactions. Jonathan shows up. Doesn't stop him. He will let Santa talk about redemption and then drain him dry.

[Culwych1]

Interesting debate so far. 

A topic from me to consider - the definition of "rehabilitate" vs Draculas relationship to blood. 

Doesn't he need a living humans blood and death to survive? He goes beyond being an addict to blood, as shown when he nearly is overcome by thirst when Harker cuts himself. 

Is there a suggestion here that to rehabilitate him, Santa needs to convince Dracula to stop killing people and to let himself die from the thirst?

[RakaiThwei]

13 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Is there a suggestion here that to rehabilitate him, Santa needs to convince Dracula to stop killing people and to let himself die from the thirst?

Or he could feed off animals or bad people?

[Culwych1]

1 minute ago, RakaiThwei said:

Or he could feed off animals or bad people?

I thought for Dracula it had to be humans.

I guess bad people is the answer, but is that rehabilitation?

So the question then is are we happy that Santa has to convince Dracula to only feed on villains to win the task?

[Twogunkid]

4 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

I thought for Dracula it had to be humans.

I guess bad people is the answer, but is that rehabilitation?

So the question then is are we happy that Santa has to convince Dracula to only feed on villains to win the task?

I still feel like that's a long way from rehabilitation. Keep in mind that even if Dracula has other flaws besides his blood drinking. He is a rake, a liar, a manipulator, a murderer, and a warmonger

[RakaiThwei]

5 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

I still feel like that's a long way from rehabilitation. Keep in mind that even if Dracula has other flaws besides his blood drinking. He is a rake, a liar, a manipulator, a murderer, and a warmonger

And so was Nikamund, considering that he was a Viking Raider.

But he changed.

But he's killed, burned villages and plundered but he's done his best to redeem himself. We don't know why he changed but he did.

Is he considered irredeemable because he's done those things? Should he be irredeemable because he's killed and plundered?

And if Dracula can't have animal blood (which is dumb if you ask me) then can't he take blood from consenting donors assuming he did try to change his ways or at the least get blood packs from blood banks?

[Twogunkid]

I feel like we are rapidly talking circles. Everyone he encounters is a tool or food or both.

Nothing in the novel suggests Dracula is anything other than a force of evil driven by lusts, pride, and gluttony.

[Culwych1]

I do wonder if there's a real possibility that this could backfire spectacularly, and flip completely... with Dracula tempting Stanta back to the old ways. If I recall, it didn't take a massive amount for Santa to go full berserk mode (and revel in it) in the movie. Dude was stabbing people in the face with Christmas ornaments and going for it with the mallet. 

I think he's as likely to lose his temper and shove a grenade down Dracula's throat as he is to convince the old one to stop craving the blood of innocent beautiful ladies. 

[RakaiThwei]

8 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

I do wonder if there's a real possibility that this could backfire spectacularly, and flip completely... with Dracula tempting Stanta back to the old ways. If I recall, it didn't take a massive amount for Santa to go full berserk mode (and revel in it) in the movie. Dude was stabbing people in the face with Christmas ornaments and going for it with the mallet.

He tried to be civil with them first and reason with the mercy but they weren't listening. Everything he did was out of self-defense and to protect Trudy.

[Twogunkid]

39 minutes ago, RakaiThwei said:

He tried to be civil with them first and reason with the mercy but they weren't listening. Everything he did was out of self-defense and to protect Trudy.

And Drac preying on Lucy and Mina and the virtue of Victorian women wouldn't press that berserk button?

[RakaiThwei]

4 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

And Drac preying on Lucy and Mina and the virtue of Victorian women wouldn't press that berserk button?

There's a very high chance that Nikamund knows what Dracula has done. But he's not that berserker Viking anymore unless HE HAS to be either out of self-defense and maybe protecting children. How can Nikamund protect two women who have been dead for maybe two to three hundred years? If anything, Violent Night shows that Santa, being a figure of good will and peace despite his cynicism early in the movie-- first tries to reason with the people who tried to kill him.

We have to assume that Nikamund and Dracula are meeting now in current day.

And even YOU admitted that Dracula has to have a modicum of respect for Nikamund, that he wouldn't go on the attack unless provoked or if it serves a purpose towards whatever ends he wants to admit.