13:6 - Leonardo (1987) vs. Trevor Belmont

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 13, ROUND 6

Leonardo (1987)

Slot: The Team's Anthropromophic Animal
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Leonardo (1987) at this Wiki
Official Site: Nickelodeon

Trevor Belmont

Slot: The Team's Hunter
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Trevor Belmont at this Wiki
Official Site: Konami

Battle Terrain
Hunter vs. Hunted: Mirror Maze

[Peypeypeypey]

Ooh, interesting. My initial thought is Trevor because of all the crazy stuff he fights, but I'm holding my vote until more people comment. Should be a good fight either way though

[Twogunkid]

Trevor fights a huge variety of opponents way more threatening than Leonardo. Plus Trevor has a more varied arsenal.

[RakaiThwei]

"A true ninja is a master of himself and his environment! So don't forget, we're Turtles!"

While this quote is from the Leonardo of the Live Action Universe-- it none the less very much still applies to Leonardo from the Fred Wolf universe. If anything, I would think that Leonardo definitely has the element of surprise here, which he can use to offensively use-- or perhaps defensively use. As a ninja, he is quite skilled in the art of stealth and he isn't as loud as his brother Michelangelo, who frequently yells out "Cowabunga". I can definitely see Leonardo using the reflections of the mirrors to his advantage, taunting at Trevor Belmont to play some psychological games, just to wear him down a little bit or get him confused and further lost in the maze.

As for his arsenal, while Leonardo is usually seen wielding only his twin Ninjaken, it's a safe bet that he's also equipped with some equipment that Donatello has invented over the years, primarily I'm talking about the exploding shurikens. We've seen them used a few times in the 1987 TV series and also fairly recently in Turtles Forever. Also, as a ninja, it's also a safe bet that he's equipped with the standard equipment that your typical Iga or Koga ninja have such as smoke pellets, kunai, etc.

As for what Leonardo has fought, well he has fought other Mutants, Aliens, Dinosaurs, a Freddy Krueger inspired entity, a LITERAL video game end boss, to name a few. I'm still watching the 1987 series on DVD, and it's a long haul to get through, so there's more enemies that Leonardo has fought that I haven't come across yet. But I do know, that 1987 Leonardo has also fought Utrom Shredder, aka Ch'rell-- and that Shredder recently upgraded his exoframe with 1987 Krang's technology, which allowed him to grow to immense size to destroy cities as he was Kaiju sized. This occurred in Turtles Forever. Sure, Leonardo had to have help from the rest of the 1987 Toon Turtles, and the 2003 Turtles, and the Mirage Turtles, but it still counts towards his level of experience.

Having that said... I think Leonardo can do what it takes... And add the level of toon force which he has, well.... Here's a link to see what he can do, if any of you are actually going to look at what 1987 Leo can do. (Seriously, how many of you are gonna look at this?)

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/fy2o70/respect_leonardo_teenage_mutant_ninja_turtles_87/

Having that said, Trevor's not gonna make this easy... but I'm backing Leonardo here.

Leonardo, high difficulty.

[Twogunkid]

Trevor routinely deals with foes who can phase through walls. He shatters stone with a whip, for a human being, Trevor can force the likes of Alucard and Dracula to use two hands and apply more of their superhuman strength. Trevor shakes off wounds that would be lethal to anyone else including multistory falls and being run through. Trevor routinely carries his whip, holy water (which acts more like napalm), swords, knives, and his limited arsenal of magic, granted I don't think his focused holy magic is going to be as effective, but it is not to be discounted. Trevor is surgical with both whip and thrown weapons and has the durability to tank exploding shurikens as well as anything Leo might throw at him.

Further, Trevor is also a wily combatant. He often uses the environment to his advantage and is no stranger to taking on foes faster and stronger than Leo.

 

If we want to talk a game item, Trevor can use the stopwatch for a short time freeze which should be a pretty instant win.

Leo is a good fighter, but he is outclassed by Trevor.

[RakaiThwei]

1 minute ago, Twogunkid said:

 He shatters stone with a whip, for a human being, Trevor can force the likes of Alucard and Dracula to use two hands and apply more of their superhuman strength.

That's pretty cool. I'll admit that...

But Leonardo can do some pretty amazing things with his own mutant Turtle strength. I mean he's been shown to pierce his sword and cut through the Technodrome's eye turret while underwater. And I would think that being underwater would have to provide some resistance as well, making it difficult to do. But Leonardo's managed to do that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/12996yl/leo_cutting_open_turret/

And then there's Leonardo also cutting through Alien Drones in half, and these drones are likely made from some unknown alien metal.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/12997yk/leo_mike_destroying_alien_drones/

He also SOMEHOW cuts through energy bands which are strong enough to restrain the other Turtles.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299bzt/leo_cutting_energy_bands/

He also cuts and destroys an Industrial Buzz saw that was set up to cut him in half

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299gdm/leo_cutting_industrial_machines/

He also slices off a giant robotic dragon's twin heads off with relative ease.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299dw1/leo_cutting_robot_heads/

Cuts all the way through a laser cannon like a hot knife through butter.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299h6g/leo_cutting_laser_cannon/

He rescued his brother Michelangelo from Dregg's mechanical arm which PUNCHED through the street and into the sewer.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299c81/leo_cutting_dregg_arm/

And in just a few strikes, he also cuts through a large dish antannae.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299hgk/leo_cutting_antenna/

After a few tries, he cuts through a wire holding a wrecking ball.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299iak/gif/

Leonardo also has also cut through an alien tank and utilizes some toon force to become a blur.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/129983o/leo_cutting_apart_tank/

14 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Trevor shakes off wounds that would be lethal to anyone else including multistory falls and being run through.

So has Leonardo...

Leonardo was kicked by Chrome Dome, and Chrome Dome can tear walkways in half and destroy pillars.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/129a184/turtles_vs_rogues/

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/129a1ei/turtles_chrome_dome_scaling/

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/129a1k0/turtles_chrome_dome_scaling_2/

He's also seemingly fine after falling down a long distance into a subterranean cave where the Technodrome is.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/129a2s0/gif/

Takes a continuous energy blast to the plastron from Tempestra, a literal video game endboss, who's blasts are powerful to punch through the street and into the sewers-- and somehow is seemingly just fine.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/129a37x/gif/

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/129a3ei/gif/

 

24 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Trevor routinely carries his whip, holy water (which acts more like napalm), swords, knives, and his limited arsenal of magic, granted I don't think his focused holy magic is going to be as effective, but it is not to be discounted.

Leonardo has fought against some opponents who have used magic in the 1987 TMNT series from what I can remember but not the same kind of magic which Trevor uses. Also, watching four or five seasons in a binge, makes it hard for me to remember which those people were but I do know that Leonardo has fought opponents with magic before, and some reality warpers from Dimension X and Dimension Z.

As for the Holy Magic, I can agree that it won't be as effective because Leonardo is not a demon or an undead. It might surprise him a bit, but I don't think it will be enough to deter him once he realizes that it's not gonna do as much damage on him on the type of enemies Holy magic is intended for.

27 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

 Trevor is surgical with both whip and thrown weapons and has the durability to tank exploding shurikens as well as anything Leo might throw at him.

And Leonardo is pretty precise with his katana as well...

He's cut through a weather machine in a tornardo while it was in mid-air and does it perfectly in half.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/129a3uw/gif/

He also cut through a mutated April O'Neil's collar precise enough without harming her.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/129a44w/gif/

He also slices some goo that was consuming Raphael without harming his brother at toon force speeds.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/129a4jt/leo_slicing_goo/

Cuts through the wiring of a car battery through the hood.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/129a4oc/leo_cutting_car_battery/

And just for some laughs... Cuts through Rocksteady's pants without harming him.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/129a48p/gif/

33 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

If we want to talk a game item, Trevor can use the stopwatch for a short time freeze which should be a pretty instant win.

Leo is a good fighter, but he is outclassed by Trevor.

Funny thing... Leo does have some experience with time stopping devices, and even used one.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299yog/gif/

Now assuming Leonardo is fast enough... and he sees what Trevor is about to do... Who's to say that Leonardo isn't fast enough with his toon force speed to cut the stopwatch in half and render it useless?

But personally, I would think game items are something of a grey area. I haven't watched the Netflix series, but does it make an appearance in it? I mean in my opinion, unless it has a narrative position in narrative canon... and is not just a game mechanic to make the game more enjoyable for the player of the game, then maybe it could be counted.

39 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Leo is a good fighter, but he is outclassed by Trevor.

At least you're giving Leo some credit, but I think Leo's taken on opponents who are just as bizarre as the ones Trevor have fought. If anything, they might be equal in different areas, but I think the environment favors Leonardo a little bit more.

[Twogunkid]

I do have to say I dread going up against Turtles and predators because you have all this knowledge and are tenacious @RakaiThwei.

 

No, the stop watch did not appear in the show, and I am willing to leave it aside as it is sort of an incongruity within the Castelvania universe. That said, game items are primarily what Trevor uses as he is primarily a video game character.

Trevor's godkilling sword did appear in the netflix show though.

Trevor fights Dracula and Alucard who both can move faster than the human eye can see. He reacts and fights them well. Alucard is his equal and in the games he can take Dracula down by himself. Trevor decides to go solo Death in the Castlevania Netflix series.

I think the environment harms Leo actually. The mirrors work both ways and Trevor is used to defending from all directions. Trevor is as likely to try and spring a surprise attack as Leo and Trevor has more experience responding to surprise attacks.

Trevor can take hits from death itself and survive a massive god killing explosion.  He can power through injuries and I think once the damage starts racking up on both sides, Trevor takes this in endurance.

[Peypeypeypey]

4 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

I do have to say I dread going up against Turtles and predators because you have all this knowledge and are tenacious @RakaiThwei.

 

No, the stop watch did not appear in the show, and I am willing to leave it aside as it is sort of an incongruity within the Castelvania universe. That said, game items are primarily what Trevor uses as he is primarily a video game character.

Trevor's godkilling sword did appear in the netflix show though.

Trevor fights Dracula and Alucard who both can move faster than the human eye can see. He reacts and fights them well. Alucard is his equal and in the games he can take Dracula down by himself. Trevor decides to go solo Death in the Castlevania Netflix series.

I think the environment harms Leo actually. The mirrors work both ways and Trevor is used to defending from all directions. Trevor is as likely to try and spring a surprise attack as Leo and Trevor has more experience responding to surprise attacks.

Trevor can take hits from death itself and survive a massive god killing explosion.  He can power through injuries and I think once the damage starts racking up on both sides, Trevor takes this in endurance.

I'm not throwing my weight one way or the other, but I will point out that "Death" in the Castlevania show is not the embodiment of Death, it's described as a sort of Elemental spirit that feeds on death. Still a powerful being, but it's important context to note that it's not the actual Embodiment of death, and is a good step down from most Death depictions in media

[RakaiThwei]

2 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

I do have to say I dread going up against Turtles and predators because you have all this knowledge and are tenacious @RakaiThwei.

GOOD!! 😆

2 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

No, the stop watch did not appear in the show, and I am willing to leave it aside as it is sort of an incongruity within the Castelvania universe. That said, game items are primarily what Trevor uses as he is primarily a video game character.

So it doesn't appear in the Netflix show.

And even if we go with video game Trevor, Leonardo does have experience with video game characters, namely Tempestra as she literally had video game physics and powers on her side.

2 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Trevor's godkilling sword did appear in the netflix show though.

Now, is that a standard equipment he has from the get go or is that a power up item he gets in the long run?

I'm not sure if that's something to be counted in the match but assuming it is, that's a tough weapon to compete against. I'll admit that.

But it's not the weapon that counts, it's the wielder.

2 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Trevor fights Dracula and Alucard who both can move faster than the human eye can see. He reacts and fights them well. Alucard is his equal and in the games he can take Dracula down by himself. Trevor decides to go solo Death in the Castlevania Netflix series.

If we need to look at how fast the Turtles can move, especially the 1987 Toon Turtles... Let's see their reaction and combat speed. Now as far as I know, lasers do not exist in the world of Castlevania, as that is set in the past. I think that this is something we need to serious account for as we have no idea how Trevor would react to something like lasers. Leonardo consistently has shown to deflect and dodge lasers.

He's deflected lasers from a space pirate.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299uoh/leo_blocking_shots/

Leonardo has dodged and deflected lasers from a military turret.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299ut0/leo_deflecting_laser_shot/

He's deflected shots unleashed by Bebop and Rocksteady.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299ux7/leo_deflecting_shots/

Leonardo charges in while deflecting and dodging lasers fired by Berserko's robots.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299v2p/leo_deflecting_shots/

Deflects energy back at an energized mutant.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299v88/leo_raph_reflecting_energy/

Swats an explosive rocket launched from Krakus.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299vmn/leo_slashing_rocket/

Jumps over a shot fired from a Helicopter-Tank.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299wj8/leo_jumping_over_tank_shot/

Jumps over gunfire unleashed by Leatherhead.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299wpq/gif/

That's just reaction and dodging speeds... I've already shown the attacking speeds which Leonardo has been capable of with his toon force speeds. However, if we need some other examples. Well, here's Leonardo cutting up a Foot ninja, and he does it so fast-- the machine falls apart as a delayed reaction.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299xyc/leo_fte_cutting_mike_throwing_foot/

Leonardo was also shown to be fast enough to catch up and jump on a speeding and erractically moving drill.

https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/1299tmc/gif/

Now as for your point on Death.... Well, that's a hard one to top. As far as I know, the TMNT haven't really fought a version of Death-- UNLESS you're going to account the Archie version of the TMNT, which as far as I know, originally were tied into the cartoon as an adaptation but then later on began to develop their own stories, which seemed to get increasingly more adult and dark, more in tune with their Mirage counterparts. But having that said, the 1987 version of the Turtles haven't fought a version of Death.

They did have fight Utrom Shredder, who was proven to be a multiversal level threat the moment he got his hands on the Mirage Turtles, began killing them, and in turn was literally erasing the TMNT Multiverse in Turtles Forever. Take that however you will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fACkC68HexI

Edit: This could be considered a pain threshold feat, but ALL the Turtles in that clip survive twenty two seconds of having their very existences being stripped down to nothing as Utrom Shredder is killing the Mirage Turtles. That's 22 or so seconds of 1987 Leonardo (and the other Turtles as well) being LITERALLY erased from existence, until 1987 Donatello unleashes the exploding shurikens at Utrom Shredder.

[Twogunkid]

Trevor has the sword for the back half the season. He saves it for when he needs it.

The speed feats I'm unsure as Alucard and Dracula are animated as near teleportation movement as versus the laser actually traveling.

I'd say how was Shredder erasing them? It seems like it wasn't him directly but more like some plot device.

[RakaiThwei]

12 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Trevor has the sword for the back half the season. He saves it for when he needs it.

But my question is this... Is this something he has ALWAYS had from when he started his monster hunting career or is it an acquired weapon that he picked up along the way. That's what I want to know.

13 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

The speed feats I'm unsure as Alucard and Dracula are animated as near teleportation movement as versus the laser actually traveling.

Leonardo has also dealt with enemies who were capable of teleporting in the 1987 cartoon show as well.

14 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

I'd say how was Shredder erasing them? It seems like it wasn't him directly but more like some plot device.

Shredder found that by finding the elements which made each of the TMNT in every single universe elemental to who they are, he would be able to pin point the source to all Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in the multiverse, and if he destroyed the source-- he destroys ALL Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Every single TMNT that has ever been, and every single TMNT that ever will have been.

So he goes to the Mirage universe as he found the elements which made the 1987 and 2003 Turtles so similar, and traced it back to the Mirage Universe. You can see how he also does this. So he deduces that he has to destroy the multiverse by destroying the Prime Turtles, the ORIGINAL Mirage Turtles. Destroy the source, destroy ALL TMNT. He even gives a speech how in their DNA, it ALL traces back to the Mirage Universe.

https://youtu.be/nt67ipAlJT0?feature=shared&t=6853

Also, Shredder attempts to erase both the 1987 and 2003 Turtles with his machine. Karai was able to molecularly reassemble them back into existence with the same machine.

So... 1987 Leonardo has survived being erased from existence TWICE.

[Twogunkid]

11 minutes ago, RakaiThwei said:

But my question is this... Is this something he has ALWAYS had from when he started his monster hunting career or is it an acquired weapon that he picked up along the way. That's what I want to know.

Leonardo has also dealt with enemies who were capable of teleporting in the 1987 cartoon show as well.

Shredder found that by finding the elements which made each of the TMNT in every single universe elemental to who they are, he would be able to pin point the source to all Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in the multiverse, and if he destroyed the source-- he destroys ALL Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Every single TMNT that has ever been, and every single TMNT that ever will have been.

So he goes to the Mirage universe as he found the elements which made the 1987 and 2003 Turtles so similar, and traced it back to the Mirage Universe. You can see how he also does this. So he deduces that he has to destroy the multiverse by destroying the Prime Turtles, the ORIGINAL Mirage Turtles. Destroy the source, destroy ALL TMNT. He even gives a speech how in their DNA, it ALL traces back to the Mirage Universe.

https://youtu.be/nt67ipAlJT0?feature=shared&t=6853

Also, Shredder attempts to erase both the 1987 and 2003 Turtles with his machine. Karai was able to molecularly reassemble them back into existence with the same machine.

So... 1987 Leonardo has survived being erased from existence TWICE.

He picked it up along the way (which is Trevor's wont, he tends to collect a lot of useful things along the way.)

Trevor's teleport speed opponents are speed blitzing him and he's able to handle them. He concocts plans as he fights including convoluted ones. He is subtly building a plan as he fights and then letting his opponents work their way into his carefully laid trap. Not to say he can't just brute force things. His fight vs the the regenerating hell demons or Death come to mind. Both of those he basically wins through tanking and dishing out more and more damage.

If Karai reassembles Leonardo, that's not him surviving, that's Karai teleporting him not an actual durability feat. The second erasing doesn't occur either as Shredder stops to preserve himself. Neither of those feats involve Leo being more durable or outsmarting. The third involves Donatello, who I suppose we could scale to his brother, and it might be a pain feat, but it is not something he survived through durability. That would be like me saying Trevor could tank the godkiller sword explosion vs death because St. Germain teleported him away. All of them involve him being saved by the actions of another.

[RakaiThwei]

18 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

He picked it up along the way (which is Trevor's wont, he tends to collect a lot of useful things along the way.)

Okay. So it's not part of his standard equipment then?

18 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

If Karai reassembles Leonardo, that's not him surviving, that's Karai teleporting him not an actual durability feat.

It's more of a pain threshold feat. I cannot imagine how painful it must be to have your molecules being disassembled and you're being broken down to your DNA, all just to find the source of of where your multiverse original self more or less exists.

18 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

If Karai reassembles Leonardo, that's not him surviving, that's Karai teleporting him not an actual durability feat. The second erasing doesn't occur either as Shredder stops to preserve himself.

About that....

In the directors cut of Turtles Forever (which aired online simultaneously as did the TV version but was never put out on DVD but was aired years later on Nicktoons as the definitive version) Shredder DOES exactly that as the pain was too much for him at first. Then... DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT... and proceeds to kill the Mirage Turtles, the 1987 TMNT, and the 2003 TMNT, and HIMSELF... Utrom Shredder was WILLING to kill himself JUST to erase the TMNT Multiverse.

So... no, he did not care about preserving himself.

 

18 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

The third involves Donatello, who I suppose we could scale to his brother, and it might be a pain feat, but it is not something he survived through durability..

It's intended to be a pain threshold feat as was the first example.

Edit: Also, if we're going to scale Leonardo to either any of his brothers... considering that they are from the same universe, mutated from the same Mutagen, and were trained by the same Master.... Well, if we look at Michelangelo's durability feats, and account that ALL 1987 TMNT have toon force... Then Leonardo's durability if we scale him to Michelangelo, looks like this.

 

[Twogunkid]

It's part of his season 3 equipment. So not in seasons 1 & 2. For that logic things like his cross, the Morningstar, and other iconic aspects of his character should be excluded because he starts with just the Vampire Killer whip in both the games and shows. A big part of Metroidvania games is acquiring weapons and then using them to explore further and further.  (Oh but he can still kill Dracula even without any of his other tools. See below, I also feel Dracula's fatal rays comprable to the laser weapons discussed)

We are hypothetical on the pain levels. Turtles are tough cookies and what happened was definitely not pleasant, but it isn't tanking erasure as you initially claimed. Further, the director's cut isn't what actually aired and the fact that it didn't make the DVD even as extras argues against it being the canonical status. (also how the heck are these full movies on youtube?))

The Michelangelo building feat is impressive, but it is more akin to being hit with a bunch of bricks than a building looking more like a dollhouse pizza parlor than anything else. The way the building crumbles and breaks into intact bricks without mortar or any foundation shows it to be a building of loose bricks stacked on each other.

Trevor takes hits from Dracula who punches his son through multi-feet thick stone walls, liquefies bone, and mortal kombat style rips people's hearts out with his bare hands. While weakened, Dracula can still rip steel apart.

Trevor also puts out enough damage to kill Dracula. (Notably the first Belmont to do this.) Dracula who survives his castle falling on him on the regular. Dracula who has survived having his head ripped off, and pulled a wooden stake out of his own heart.

 

[Macklemore]

Originally I thought Leonardo was going to win because Trevor is badass and all, but he has the Vampire Killer. That whip is specifically designed to deal with any dark entity and it's basically a weakness for all creatures of the night. But then I thought a little bit more and I realized the weapon does not a man make. Give me the vampire killer, put me against Dracula, and I'd get my head sliced off in a second. Dracula is insanely powerful, and Trevor wasn't really showcased as an equal to him (he had Alucard and Sypha on his side when he fought against Dracula IIRC), but he was showcased to be an equal to Mr. Anime Speed himself, Alucard. I do believe that Trevor is vastly faster than Leonardo, even if the "feats" of Leonardo dodging bullets/lasers are there. (I don't actually think he's reacting to them after they're fired, it's more likely to me that he's doing aimdodging instead.) I do, however, believe that Leonardo is kind of stronger if you scale him to his brothers. So it all depends on whose scaling chain goes higher, which to me is the most boring type of debating. It's definitely cooler when you take their own feats into account.

[RakaiThwei]

2 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

It's part of his season 3 equipment. So not in seasons 1 & 2. For that logic things like his cross, the Morningstar, and other iconic aspects of his character should be excluded because he starts with just the Vampire Killer whip in both the games and shows. A big part of Metroidvania games is acquiring weapons and then using them to explore further and further.  (Oh but he can still kill Dracula even without any of his other tools. See below, I also feel Dracula's fatal rays comprable to the laser weapons discussed)

I prefer to go off the Netflix adaptation as relying on a game can be relatively iffy and is a grey area (it's why I had a few critics regarding the Yautja strength feats in the past). Game mechanics and player skill come to mind.

I would think that from a narrative point of view, Holy Weapons and Magic imbued weapons are a necessity to even hang with ANY version of Dracula.

Even the picture suggest it the Netflix adaptation of the character. 

2 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

We are hypothetical on the pain levels. Turtles are tough cookies and what happened was definitely not pleasant, but it isn't tanking erasure as you initially claimed. Further, the director's cut isn't what actually aired and the fact that it didn't make the DVD even as extras argues against it being the canonical status. (also how the heck are these full movies on youtube?))

The point of showing Leonardo enduring those two instances of erasure was to show how much pain he can endure.

No, according to the Turtlepedia and Technodrome Forums, both versions did air... the Edited TV version on TV and the Director's Cut on the 4Kids website on December 16th, 2009.

Around this time Peter Laird was in talks with Nickelodeon to sell the IP rights.

Then the movie was put on DVD in August 2010 and aired on Thanksgiving of the same year.

But I distinctly remember seeing the Director's Cut on Nicktoons years ago.

Mandela effect?

Anyway, we're going to be getting the 2003 series in a complete boxset soon. So we may get it.

2 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Trevor takes hits from Dracula who punches his son through multi-feet thick stone walls, liquefies bone, and mortal kombat style rips people's hearts out with his bare hands. While weakened, Dracula can still rip steel apart.

Trevor also puts out enough damage to kill Dracula. (Notably the first Belmont to do this.) Dracula who survives his castle falling on him on the regular. Dracula who has survived having his head ripped off, and pulled a wooden stake out of his own heart.

That's pretty cool. But now you're comparing the two different tones of different worlds.

Sure the Turtles have never endured anything like that because it's a kids show.

Real Turtles are capable of having their shell endure 200x their own weight in force. And that's an empty shell. In the wild, Alligators attempt thus and have a bite force of 2,900 PSI. Now... this does have variables and limits such as the size of the Turtle and the size of the Alligator.

There's a couple articles on that:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2314541/Turtle-shell-withstands-15-minute-attack-alligator-fails-crack-shell.html

https://theaquariumguide.com/articles/how-strong-is-a-turtle-shell

Looking at Leonardo's weight and size according to his Playmates Toys card and his biography on Turtlepedia... He's about 5'11 and 155 lbs.

So let's see how much PSI his shell can endure.. WITHOUT toon force.

155x200= 31,000 PSI.

Now, going over to UnitConverters.net, and converting PSI to Ton-Force, that's 13.839285714.

Essentially 14 ton-force.

Also, IRL, a Red Ear Slider effectively survived being a Mario Go Kart weapon and fucked up a lady's windshield!

https://www.news-journalonline.com/story/news/crime/2021/04/21/florida-woman-injured-turtle-crashing-through-windshield-95/7322541002/

And that's without toon force backing Leonardo.

2 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

The Michelangelo building feat is impressive, but it is more akin to being hit with a bunch of bricks than a building looking more like a dollhouse pizza parlor than anything else. The way the building crumbles and breaks into intact bricks without mortar or any foundation shows it to be a building of loose bricks stacked on each other.

A brick building which likely has a pizza oven (brick or otherwise), kitchen counters, refrigerators, tables and seats, not to mention food stock...

I think you trying to downplay the feat there assuming Leonardo is capable of the same.

But... Now... You got me visiting websites with viruses and malware. I hope you're happy. Cause Readcomiconline.li is riddled with them and I hope it doesn't mess up my phone.

But 1987 TMNT us being continued I'm comic format by IDW and is stated to be canon to the Fred Wolf show. Not many issues have been published, so I could only find two noteworthy feats.

Leonardo dodges a super powered Casey Jones lightning blast at point blank.

Leonardo is accurate enough to throw his Katana at Stockman's rifle from a far.

Again, the comic hasn't had a long run.

[Twogunkid]

Quote

I think you trying to downplay the feat there assuming Leonardo is capable of the same.

Yes.

I am sorry about sending you to sketch websites.

Quote

That's pretty cool. But now you're comparing the two different tones of different worlds.

I mean that's going to happen regardless. The tone of the Castlevania games and show is different from all TMNT shows and media except the Mirage incarnation.

Quote

Even the picture suggest it the Netflix adaptation of the character. 

I added the picture because video game Belmont was too powerful for the last draft and I still picked him. No restriction this time, so I am under the impression I have video game canon to help backup what Trevor can do.

Quote

But I distinctly remember seeing the Director's Cut on Nicktoons years ago.

Mandela effect?

You're the expert on turtles here. I just own two.

 

I'm not an engineer or a biologist, but the strict ratio scaling doesn't seem right to me. Consider, that at small scale you see a lot more miraculous levels of durability and strength because you can have that really dense material.

[RakaiThwei]

7 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Yes.

I am sorry about sending you to sketch websites.

Well, you're making me work to fight for my fighter here. I thought the ammunition I had here was enough... Apparently not.

7 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

I mean that's going to happen regardless. The tone of the Castlevania games and show is different from all TMNT shows and media except the Mirage incarnation.

You should look at the Mirage TMNT Respect thread I made a year ago. The stuff they do is INSANE, even for what's supposed to be street level fighters... they fight well above their weight class.

https://www.magneticferret.com/forum/index.php?/topic/32853-the-mirage-tmnt-respect-thread/

Yeah, we're not talking about the Mirage Turtles here but I think you might wanna look at this to see how strong even the original TMNT are. Consider it an educational experience.

Hopefully, the Mirage TMNT can give plenty of Marvel and DC characters enough of a fight to make them worry.

7 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

I added the picture because video game Belmont was too powerful for the last draft and I still picked him. No restriction this time, so I am under the impression I have video game canon to help backup what Trevor can do.

Okay.

7 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

You're the expert on turtles here. I just own two.

I'm not an engineer or a biologist, but the strict ratio scaling doesn't seem right to me. Consider, that at small scale you see a lot more miraculous levels of durability and strength because you can have that really dense material.

Oh, I am definitely no herpetologist or even a physicist either. I'm just a guy who works at an Arts and Crafts store, and spends his time reading comic books. However,I have owned pet Turtles in the past but... I am no expert. But.... if you need some more articles or convincing.

https://theturtlehub.com/how-hard-is-a-turtle-shell/

That link right there goes further in depth with the math and the scaling.

However, I should mention that the durability of a Turtle's shell may also be dependent on the species as well. The documented durability feat of a IRL Turtle shell withstanding 1,000 PSI was an empty Box Turtle shell. And we know in the wild that Alligators have attempted to bite down on Turtles, and the shells withstand the bite force of said Alligator, which are said to have up to 2,900 PSI. But the size, width and the weight of the Turtle is also to be factored.

But different Turtles have different shells, Sea Turtles have softer shells than compared to say a Galapagos Tortoise (every Tortoise is a Turtle, not every Turtle is a Tortoise) and then there's the Softshell species of Turtles.

So... what species are the TMNT?

According to the original Mirage canon and Live Action films, they're Red Ear Sliders. But what about the 1987 Turtles? Well, they're definitely a species of Pond Sliders, as evidenced that they were seen swimming in a glass bowl before their mutation in the episode Turtle Tracks. It's safe to assume that they're Red Ear Sliders, or maybe a close relative, Cumberland Sliders.

So, I also found this video of a crudely done experiment of how much an empty Red Ear Slider shell can withstand. This empty shell was said to be about 8 to 9 inches, according to the people who purchased it on Ebay. The biggest documented Red Ear Slider was 12 inches. This shell belonged to a Turtle that wasn't fully grown, and it was able to hold up 620 lbs of free weights, before the people doing the experiment accidentally tip over their tower of weights and the shell breaks. As they examine broken empty shell, they had said that the weight applied was the strain point before the weights fell by accident. If you ask me, I think this experiment could've been done better. But they even said at the end: "Think if we get a bigger shell, it could hold bigger pounds!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc29R3-EZFo

Anyway...

I know I mentioned that the 1987 TMNT have dealt with the likes of a Reality Warper. I would like to introduce you to Mr. Ogg.

https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ogg

Now, Mr. Ogg is a character who is very much like Mr. Mxyzptlk. He came across the Turtles when the Shredder sent him after them, and he was even giving the Turtles an extremely difficult time. Even a temper tantrum from Mr. Ogg was enough to start warping New York out of shape such as turning buildings and many other structures into different things. The Turtles eventually found out Mr. Ogg's fondness for porcelain, so they had to devise a plan in order to lure this crazy reality warper into a trap. Donatello arrived with the Turtle's own dimensional portal device, allowing Leonardo to lure Ogg back to Dimension Z with a load of imitation antique vases.

Edit: Looking at some of the issues of the IDW continuation of the 1987 TMNT show, the Turtles are going to be facing Mr. Ogg again in issue eight. We'll see how they cope with him the second time.

[Twogunkid]

Huh, my two turtles are a red eared slider and a cumberland slider. Go fig. Twogiri and Cumberland lacking on the ninjitsu though.

While facing a Mxylptlyk Q like being is an impressive testament to thinking outside the box I don't think it particularly plays in here.

[RakaiThwei]

1 hour ago, Twogunkid said:

While facing a Mxylptlyk Q like being is an impressive testament to thinking outside the box I don't think it particularly plays in here.

I would have to disagree. In a hunt which is taking place in a mirror maze, thinking outside of the box is something that is going to be a big help here. And in the case of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, especially the 1987 version of the Turtles... This is something that they have to do quite frequently in their adventures.

Confronting Mr. Ogg was just one example of them having to think outside of the box, and the next example would be Chrome Dome.

https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/Chromedome_(1987_TV_series)

Now, you're thinking that Chrome Dome is just your ordinary Foot machine, right? Wrong. Chrome Dome at one point was LITERALLY indestructible because he was made from Adamantium, and in the episode Planet of the Turtlenoids, Shredder and Krang openly state in their dialogue that Adamantium was an indestructible metal.

Now, it sounds like I'm making this up, right? Well... I'm actually not. When I saw this episode on the DVD box set that I owned and heard the dialogue, I laughed pretty hard. Look at the notes at the bottom of the page here.

https://turtlepedia.fandom.com/wiki/Planet_of_the_Turtleoids,_Part_1

The Turtles had to think outside of the box to find a weak point in Chrome Dome's battle armor to get access to his circuitry and destroy it. And that's considerably hard if you think about the fact that Chrome Dome literally was made out of Adamantium, and was for all intense and purposes-- mirroring the same metal from the Marvel universe (the writers purposely jacked Adamantium from Marvel and got away with it!), and the onboard weaponry and battle capabilities which Chrome Dome has, and the TMNT, having nothing but ninja weapons.

The TMNT have faced overwhelming, sometimes even downright impossible odds but their improvisational skills and ability to think outside of the box seems to have carried them through in their career.

And that's something most incarnations of Leonardo, from Mirage, to Fred Wolf, to 2003 4Kids, 2012 Nick, IDW, and many other versions are extremely good and consistent at. He's often the strategist of the brothers for a very good reason.

 

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Leonardo (1987): 5
Trevor Belmont: 8