13:9 - Lady Shiva vs. Michelangelo (1987)

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 13, ROUND 9

Lady Shiva

Slot: The Team's Hunter
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Lady Shiva at this Wiki
Official Site: D.C Comics

Michelangelo (1987)

Slot: The Team's Anthropromophic Animal
Season Wins: 0
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Michelangelo (1987) at this Wiki
Official Site: Nickelodeon

Battle Terrain
Hunter vs. Hunted: Mirror Maze

[C.T.]

Lady Shiva...yeah, Michelangelo is pretty much toast. Shiva's up there with the usual suspects of best martial artist in DC(Connor Hawke, Cassandra Cain, Richard Dragon, Bruce Wayne etc) with whose on top fluctuating on any given day...Shiva at her worst is still by a wide margin superior to the best version of Michelangelo.

[IKA]

20 minutes ago, C.T. said:

Lady Shiva...yeah, Michelangelo is pretty much toast. Shiva's up there with the usual suspects of best martial artist in DC(Connor Hawke, Cassandra Cain, Richard Dragon, Bruce Wayne etc) with whose on top fluctuating on any given day...Shiva at her worst is still by a wide margin superior to the best version of Michelangelo.

She's actually been stated to be top 3.

[RakaiThwei]

1 hour ago, C.T. said:

Shiva at her worst is still by a wide margin superior to the best version of Michelangelo.

Including the Last Ronin Michelangelo who was openly stated in narration and dialogue that he's mastered every Martial Art?

[RiotGear]

Shiva tends to carry limited to no weapons. So even if she is more skilled than Mikey she's going to have to over come the gap in physical stats. For reference and with a thanks to @RakaiThwei Mikey's physical abilities.

 

 

 

 

 

In other words Mikey is not only skilled in his own right, but also capable of smashing apart advanced alien metal, dodging near point blank range gun fire, and walking off having a building dropped on him.

The stat gap is gonna be bigger in Mikey's favor, than the perceived skill gap in Shiva's favor.

 

[C.T.]

25 minutes ago, RakaiThwei said:

Including the Last Ronin Michelangelo who was openly stated in narration and dialogue that he's mastered every Martial Art?

Yeah.

[C.T.]

4 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

In other words Mikey is not only skilled in his own right, but also capable of smashing apart advanced alien metal, dodging near point blank range gun fire, and walking off having a building dropped on him.

The stat gap is gonna be bigger in Mikey's favor, than the perceived skill gap in Shiva's favor.

No, the skill gap is a lot bigger than the stat gap, and even if it weren't, the stat gap is not going to matter. Lady Shiva and her daughter Cassandra are often on the same level, trading victories and Cass has casually dodged gunfire before, even point blank, I wouldn't be surprised if Shiva does the same, and Shiva has also demonstrably owned Killer Croc while barely even trying(she kept one arm behind her back the whole time and it only took like a few moves) and I'd say he's comparable in toughness and strength to the ninja turtles.

[RiotGear]

5 minutes ago, C.T. said:

No, the skill gap is a lot bigger than the stat gap, and even if it weren't, the stat gap is not going to matter. Lady Shiva and her daughter Cassandra are often on the same level, trading victories and Cass has casually dodged gunfire before, even point blank, I wouldn't be surprised if Shiva does the same, and Shiva has also demonstrably owned Killer Croc while barely even trying(she kept one arm behind her back the whole time and it only took like a few moves) and I'd say he's comparable in toughness and strength to the ninja turtles.

Do we have examples of Shiva dodging gunfire point blank?

Croc doesn't have any noticable skill? Does he have the toughness to have a brick building dropped on his head with enough force to collapse said building and be perfectly fine?

 

[C.T.]

8 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Do we have examples of Shiva dodging gunfire point blank?

Croc doesn't have any noticable skill? Does he have the toughness to have a brick building dropped on his head with enough force to collapse said building and be perfectly fine?

 

He doesn't have the skill, no, but that's not what I was comparing between them, and yeah he can take that. 

And I don't have any specific examples of Shiva herself doing it, though I'm pretty sure there's likely examples out there in comics I haven't read, but I'm scaling her off her daughter. Her daughter, who she has both beaten and lost to in the past, and so the two are in my mind comparable in skill and speed, and she has demonstrated the ability to dodge bullets with ease, as below:

[RiotGear]

30 minutes ago, C.T. said:

He doesn't have the skill, no, but that's not what I was comparing between them, and yeah he can take that. 

And I don't have any specific examples of Shiva herself doing it, though I'm pretty sure there's likely examples out there in comics I haven't read, but I'm scaling her off her daughter. Her daughter, who she has both beaten and lost to in the past, and so the two are in my mind comparable in skill and speed, and she has demonstrated the ability to dodge bullets with ease, as below:

Do you have an example of Croc walking off a building being dropped on his head? Or better yet an example of Shiva doing so?

Because until you have the later. The durability gap is still huge, even if Shiva has the striking power to hurt tougher opponents.

Scaling Shiva off Cass works to a degree, but if she doesn't have feats of her own. It's still makes her reaction speed far more suspect then Mikey's. She maybe be able to beat Cass on account of other factors/stats/experience.

Also the way these panels are drawn it might be high ends aim dodging, not straight up bullet timing. It's really impressive, but not the same thing.

[C.T.]

23 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Do you have an example of Croc walking off a building being dropped on his head?

Yeah, though I don't have one of Shiva, but yeah it shows Shiva can hurt people with remarkable toughness(and again she handicapped herself in doing so and still made it look real easy)

Took him a while to dig himself out of the rubble, for sure, but when he did he wasn't worse for wear.

 

[C.T.]

Also found a couple examples of Shiva's speed directly

No explicit bullet dodging there but goddamn, she demolished those poor guys in ten freaking seconds.

This one though, looks like she ducks under a bullet? And has much worse fashion sense but that's not as important lol - https://imgur.com/a/xh3vy

[RiotGear]

10 minutes ago, C.T. said:

Yeah, though I don't have one of Shiva, but yeah it shows Shiva can hurt people with remarkable toughness(and again she handicapped herself in doing so and still made it look real easy)

Took him a while to dig himself out of the rubble, for sure, but when he did he wasn't worse for wear.

 

Few things here. As you mentioned we don't see Croc again for some time, so we actually don't know what kind of damage he took initially. He could have been passed out, half dead and saved by his healing factor. Also Batman also survived and while Batman is tough. He is not ok with a building being dropped on him tough. Which means that they ( Batman and Croc ) were likely trapped by rubble/debris not that it landed directly on them. We don't see impact the way we do with Mikey's feat.

Shiva was able to handicap herself because of the skill gap, not the toughness gap. Again she doesn't have the same skill advantage here.

[C.T.]

4 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Few things here. As you mentioned we don't see Croc again for some time, so we actually don't know what kind of damage he took initially. He could have been passed out, half dead and saved by his healing factor. Also Batman also survived and while Batman is tough. He is not ok with a building being dropped on him tough. Which means that they ( Batman and Croc ) were likely trapped by rubble/debris not that it landed directly on them. We don't see impact the way we do with Mikey's feat.

Fair enough.

4 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Shiva was able to handicap herself because of the skill gap, not the toughness gap. Again she doesn't have the same skill advantage here.

Well, see, I'd have to disagree there. I'd say the gap of skill between Shiva and Michelangelo, is quite large. Killer Croc is untrained and tbh, I would say all of the ninja turtles are closer in skill level to Killer Croc than they are to Shiva. Like yeah, the jump from Killer Croc's level to the ninja turtles's level is quite a gap, but I believe the jump from the ninja turtles's level to Shiva's level is even moreso. 

[IKA]

Lady Shiva did tank Jason Todd's exploding helmet.

 

Defeated Batman pretty handily, admitting that she had only ever lost because that was her role. Otherwise Batman would ve taken down.

 

 

Here she jumps of a motorcycle to dodge gunfire and then continues to chase a speeding car on foot.

 

https://imgur.com/8YcX6V0?r

 

As for Killer Crocs durability that she has taken down with one arm (to make it fair). He has taken shots from General Zod. 

 

 

Shiva has both the skill and power to take Mikey down.

 

Also do keep in mind, this is not The Last Ronin Mikey, we have him in the database and he could have been chosen. Instead you should be looking at Mikey as he was in 1987 and that will give Shiva an even bigger edge. 

[IKA]

Here is Batman taking on all 4 turtles by himself. Shiva has beaten Batman so I think the skill gap is just too much for Mikey. 

[RakaiThwei]

3 hours ago, IKA said:

Here is Batman taking on all 4 turtles by himself. Shiva has beaten Batman so I think the skill gap is just too much for Mikey. 

Yeah, those are the IDW/DC TMNT.

The Mirage Turtles on the other hand... Well, just one was able to DEFEAT four amalgam Robin-Turtles SIMULTANEOUSLY rather easily, and even was able to keep up with Batman himself. Mirage Raphael even said that the five of them should be able to beat him and that it's sad that they weren't able to, and IDW/DC amalgam Master Splinter points out that Mirage Raphael was just playing with Batman and the Robin-Turtles.

So from now on, let's keep in mind... each different versions of the Turtles have different levels of experience, skill and even overall power sets. Some even outright kill their enemies, such as the case of the Mirage Turtles.

But we're not talking about the other versions of the Turtles, so let's just stick with the 1987 Toon Turtles.

Also... as far as my weight on the fight between Lady Shiva and Michelangelo?

Lady Shiva's skill is definitely higher than 1987 Michelangelo... That much is a given, but I personally feel like that the physicals, along with the toon force that 1987 is not something to ignore either. Especially considering the feats which Michelangelo has shown, even in the context of the silly toon... is downright impressive. Ultimately, it's going to be a match of attrition.

Shiva can give, but Michelangelo can take...

So... who will burn out? That's the ten million dollar question.

[IKA]

That fight with Batman, it wasn't even close. He didn't stand a chance.

 

She took on Black Canary and Catwoman at the same time.

 

 

She even took on Strix, Catman, and Batgirl at the same time as well.

 

As for handeling the odds too, she even beat up David Cain. While Pregnant. Badass.

 

 

I think she's got Mikey's number on this one.

[RakaiThwei]

6 hours ago, C.T. said:

Well, see, I'd have to disagree there. I'd say the gap of skill between Shiva and Michelangelo, is quite large. Killer Croc is untrained and tbh, I would say all of the ninja turtles are closer in skill level to Killer Croc than they are to Shiva.

Which version of the Turtles are closer to Croc in terms of skill? Because if you're lumping all the different versions in that category, that is a gross oversimplification and ignorance of what each version of the TMNT bring to the table. I sincerely hope that isn't the case you're suggesting.

[IKA]

1 hour ago, RakaiThwei said:

Which version of the Turtles are closer to Croc in terms of skill? Because if you're lumping all the different versions in that category, that is a gross oversimplification and ignorance of what each version of the TMNT bring to the table. I sincerely hope that isn't the case you're suggesting.

I would hope he's basing it off the old cartoons and not the more modern turtles. The more modern ones are much more ninja like.

[RakaiThwei]

4 minutes ago, IKA said:

I would hope he's basing it off the old cartoons and not the more modern turtles. The more modern ones are much more ninja like.

This is kind of why I have a love/hate relationship with the 1987 toon Turtles. It's the most popular version of the Turtles that make people sleep on all the other versions and see them as kiddie stuff.

When really, the other versions are so much more and much, much more competent. Some versions even capable of even giving Marvel and DC characters a run for their money.

[C.T.]

2 hours ago, RakaiThwei said:

Which version of the Turtles are closer to Croc in terms of skill? Because if you're lumping all the different versions in that category, that is a gross oversimplification and ignorance of what each version of the TMNT bring to the table. I sincerely hope that isn't the case you're suggesting.

Yeah, I am. The most skilled version of the turtles doesn't even come close, sorry. That Mirage turtle comic up there you posted, well like you said...he was able to keep up with Batman. Shiva humiliated Batman with ease in a 1v1 as shown up there by IKA, but even more than that? A separate time, she on her own fought Batman, her daughter Cassandra(both of whom could 4v1 the ninja turtles by themselves), Batwoman, Clayface, Azrael, and Batwing all at once and was handily winning that 1 vs 6 fight.

[RakaiThwei]

29 minutes ago, C.T. said:

Yeah, I am. The most skilled version of the turtles doesn't even come close, sorry.

I call bull on that.

No two versions of any of the TMNT are the same. And some of them outright now have powers they acquired through training with a reformed Shredder. To lump them in together as being around Croc level in skill is a gross and disgusting display of ignorance and perhaps an unwillingness to learn about them.

And as much as I love the Mirage Turtles, they're the most brutal of the Turtles but definitely on the lower totem pole in terms of power.

The IDW Turtles are the aforementioned Turtles I mentioned who trained with a reformed Shredder. They now have new skills called Kuji-Kiri and can access powers they're gifted with.

IDW Donatello can effectively STOP TIME on his own here. And he's the one with the craziest ability through skill in Kuji-Kiri.

And then there's Last Ronin Michelangelo, who is the only surviving Turtle in the TMNT Roninverse, and he's MASTERED ALL Martial Arts.

And don't get me started in the Rise Turtles at their current level.

And I don't like Rise but they're arguably the highest on the totem pole in terms of overall ability. 2003 TMNT being not too far behind.

 

There are some versions of the Turtles that would mollywop Shiva.

39 minutes ago, C.T. said:

That Mirage turtle comic up there you posted, well like you said...he was able to keep up with Batman.

At least you acknowledge that Mirage Raphael was able and skilled enough to hold his own against Batman and four Robin-Turtles who were likely trained alongside him.

44 minutes ago, C.T. said:

Shiva humiliated Batman with ease in a 1v1 as shown up there by IKA, but even more than that? A separate time, she on her own fought Batman, her daughter Cassandra(both of whom could 4v1 the ninja turtles by themselves), Batwoman, Clayface, Azrael, and Batwing all at once and was handily winning that 1 vs 6 fight.

Let me say that by no means I am suggesting that 80's toon Mikey is more skilled than Shiva. The only thing he's got going for him is the Toon Force ability he has, which I think is being overlooked here. Even in the context of the TMNT Multiverse, it's generally implied that the 80's toon Turtles carry some of that toon force with them, even when traveling to other TMNT Universes.

If anything, 1987 Toon Mikey's chances are low here. I can concede that.

But what I will not stand is a disregard for the Turtles. They've endured that long enough for 36 years because of the 80's toon when they're so much more than Pizza and Cowabunga.

[C.T.]

44 minutes ago, RakaiThwei said:

To lump them in together as being around Croc level in skill is a gross and disgusting display of ignorance and perhaps an unwillingness to learn about them.

That’s not what I said. Croc is untrained in that way, they’re significantly above him in that regard. What I said was, the gap between him and them in skill, while substantial, is still a smaller gap than the one between them and Shiva. Croc’s not on their level, definitely not, but he’s closer to their level than they are to Shiva.

[DSkillz]

As has been mentioned, there's probably not a version of any of the Turtles whose fighting skill matches up with Shiva's. Any toon force of '87 Mikey's is also kinda low scale, so it likely won't help him much here. 

Mikey makes this comical and kinda interesting, but Shiva takes him in the end.