13:9 - Jem'Hadar vs. Orcs

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 13, ROUND 9

Jem'Hadar

Slot: The Team's Horde
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Jem'Hadar at this Wiki
Official Site: star trek

Orcs

Slot: The Team's Horde
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Orcs at this Wiki
Official Site: Public Domain

Battle Terrain
Horde Challenge: Wrestling Ring

[Twogunkid]

While the Jemhadar are formidable opponents. Orcs are known for brawling and fighting. The orcs are going to have more experience in hand to hand. Plus Orc teeth are more suited to biting and they are going to use that.

[RiotGear]

Firstly it should be noted that the Jem'Hadar may well have the physical ability to fight with the Orcs and that, that combined with greater use of skill, tactics, and coordination in said fight would allow them to win.

The Jem'Hadar are capable of fighting with species such as Vulcans. Who are not only stronger than Klingons, but Spock a half Vulcan had the physical strength to bend, crumple, and shatter metal with blows.

This is how strong Spock is, 

 

Thing is though, the Jem'Hadar don't need to simply brawl, their Shroud/personal cloak and the ability to think and fight as a team. Give them other options.

Chances are if they cloaked the Orcs would think they had run away with magic and exit the ring. Leaving the Jem'Hadar as the last ones standing in the ring.

The Jem'Hadar could use a single unshrouded Jem'Hadar to lead the Orcs away and achieve the same results.

Also being being able to turn invisible allows the Jem'Hadar to pick there moments.

In other words even if the Orcs would win a fist fight and that's a big if. The Jem'Hadar don't half to sit there and brawl.

 

[Twogunkid]

The Jem'hadar are chemically dependent on ketrocel white to cloak. That feels like an outside aid that would not be allowed in a wrestling match any more than their phased polaron rifles or orcs bringing blades and armor to the fight.

Further if the Founders have ordered the Jem'hadar to wrestle, they aren't going to flee. They are going to wrestle. From the episode where Worf is in a prison camp and Garrak faces his claustrophobia, the Jem'hadar culturally like to fight, so I think it likely they will not try and win by failing to fist fight the orcs.

Spock's status is impressive, but the Jem'hadar lose to Worf in hand to hand unarmed combat and Klingons are less physically impressive than Vulcans in the strength department as Captain Kirk at several points and ages in his career physically bests Klingons (throughout TOS and later in ST: III where he beats Kurge.)

Orcs are physically strong and impressive and tend to win their fights with Dwarves and Men as a whole. They suffer from infighting and cliques when they lack an enemy to fight, but fortunately the Jem'hadar are here.

This is a bad challenge pull for the Jem'hadar where their technological and disciplinary superiority offer little advantage.

[RiotGear]

9 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

The Jem'hadar are chemically dependent on ketrocel white to cloak. That feels like an outside aid that would not be allowed in a wrestling match any more than their phased polaron rifles or orcs bringing blades and armor to the fight.

Further if the Founders have ordered the Jem'hadar to wrestle, they aren't going to flee. They are going to wrestle. From the episode where Worf is in a prison camp and Garrak faces his claustrophobia, the Jem'hadar culturally like to fight, so I think it likely they will not try and win by failing to fist fight the orcs.

Spock's status is impressive, but the Jem'hadar lose to Worf in hand to hand unarmed combat and Klingons are less physically impressive than Vulcans in the strength department as Captain Kirk at several points and ages in his career physically bests Klingons (throughout TOS and later in ST: III where he beats Kurge.)

Orcs are physically strong and impressive and tend to win their fights with Dwarves and Men as a whole. They suffer from infighting and cliques when they lack an enemy to fight, but fortunately the Jem'hadar are here.

This is a bad challenge pull for the Jem'hadar where their technological and disciplinary superiority offer little advantage.

The Jem'Hadar need Ketrocel White to live. Think of it as part medication and part food. Would you call a wrestler eating breakfast before a match, outside aid? Or call a diabetic wrestler taking insulin before a match outside aid?

The Founders haven't ordered them to do anything here. And their standing orders are basically win. Jem'Hadar have a tactical mindset and are literally built for stealth and come from an empire that wages war through deception.

The prison camp fights were about training and knowing their enemy.

Jem'Hadar also routinely take out Klingons. Worf is a top tier combatant, so is Kirk. Remember Worf is a literal fighting champion and Kirk took out Khan, who is something like five times stronger than a none enhanced human.

Infighting you say like if they couldn't find their opponents in a wrestling wrong they may just fight each other. That works in the Jem'Hadar's favor as well.

It shouldn't be a bad pull, as it's that discipline that will allow them to work as a team and out think the Orcs. 

[Twogunkid]

Ketrocel white they do need, but not constantly, and it is more an addiction than a nutritional requirement. They are just fine when they don't have white in the short run.

If the jemhadar lack orders from a founder they tend to be lost. They are told to wrestle. They are gonna wrestle.

Jemhadar's biggest advantage is their fanaticsl devotion. They can lose in hand to hand to Bajorans, humans, Cardassians, Trill, and even Ferengi (Magnificent Ferengi). The orcs have enough motivation to beat the Jemhadar first.

[RiotGear]

3 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Ketrocel white they do need, but not constantly, and it is more an addiction than a nutritional requirement. They are just fine when they don't have white in the short run.

If the jemhadar lack orders from a founder they tend to be lost. They are told to wrestle. They are gonna wrestle.

Jemhadar's biggest advantage is their fanaticsl devotion. They can lose in hand to hand to Bajorans, humans, Cardassians, Trill, and even Ferengi (Magnificent Ferengi). The orcs have enough motivation to beat the Jemhadar first.

It maybe used as a narrative substitute for addiction, but they have a literal biological need for White, sure they can survive without it for a bit, but most humanoids can go a bit without food too.

If the Jem'Hadar don't have White are the Orcs coming into the match half starved?

We see the Jem'Hadar operate without direct orders from Founders or Vorta. They are told to wrestle yes, but also to win. If they are not given specific instructions on how to achieve that goal, they are going to employ the most tactical plan they can muster.

They can lose to all those species, but it's worth noting that all those species consider the Jem'Hadar to be physically dangerous, to the extreme.

Also most of those loses are against highly skilled individuals and many of the races you mentioned are vaguely superhuman in their own right.

Even the Ferengi. In the episode you mentioned "Magnificent Ferengi" we see a Ferengi throw a knife hard enough to embed it in the wall of a space station built from advanced metals. In "Last Outpost" a couple of Ferengi manage to physically drop Data, an android strong enough to bend metal and hold back speeding cars.

Also remember we aren't dealing with 40k Orks here. These are run of the mill Tolkien-esque Orcs, that lose to men, dwarves, elves, halflings etc.

In other words Orcs that are in no way physically superior to Jem'Hadar and lack the unit cohesion, tactical acumen, and extra powers of their opponents.

[Twogunkid]

The physically function without a Dr op in speed or strength without it. It's an extra aid.

Secondly, the orcs are in the process of wiping out all the other races of Middle Earth. Dwarves are pretty much already done and men got bailed out by ghosts and the destruction of Mordor. The orcs have the battles won on both the Battle of Pelanor Fields and the Battle of the Black Gate. They also had the Battle of Five Armies till the Eagles showed up, and they did drive the Dwarves out of just about all their land.

[RiotGear]

37 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

The physically function without a Dr op in speed or strength without it. It's an extra aid.

Secondly, the orcs are in the process of wiping out all the other races of Middle Earth. Dwarves are pretty much already done and men got bailed out by ghosts and the destruction of Mordor. The orcs have the battles won on both the Battle of Pelanor Fields and the Battle of the Black Gate. They also had the Battle of Five Armies till the Eagles showed up, and they did drive the Dwarves out of just about all their land.

Dude, they die with out White. They have been genetically engineered to need it. Denying them White as a base line is like saying the Orc do not get food, rest, medical aid etc.

We are taking about small unit melee fights, not the ability to wage war on a grand scale. Though the Jemycan clearly do that as well. The Dominion lost because of Devine intervention on the part of the Prophets, not on the failures of Jem'Hadar as soldiers.

You pointed out the species that had beat the Jem'Hadar in melee combat, I did the same for the Orcs.

[Twogunkid]

18 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Dude, they die with out White. They have been genetically engineered to need it. Denying them White as a base line is like saying the Orc do not get food, rest, medical aid etc.

We are taking about small unit melee fights, not the ability to wage war on a grand scale. Though the Jemycan clearly do that as well. The Dominion lost because of Devine intervention on the part of the Prophets, not on the failures of Jem'Hadar as soldiers.

You pointed out the species that had beat the Jem'Hadar in melee combat, I did the same for the Orcs.

Eventually, per "Rocks and Shoals" the Jem'hadar can go a number of days without the white without dying, so I don't buy the necessity of letting them bring fresh white into the arena.

The orcs are small unit melee fights at best and they are besting the men and dwarves in most battles. The times we do see orcs going down is to descendants of Numenor, the greatest warriors of Gondor, legendary Elvish princes, great cavalry warriors, angellic beings hiding in the form of old men, Dwarf warrirors whose skill with an axe is described as unmatched. The only Hobbit to Orc kills in the books are in Cirith Ungol. Sam gets the drop on the orcs, and the battle of Isengard where Merry and Pippin are atop an Ent where there is no threat of an orc engaging in melee with them throwing stuff at them. (and Merry, Pippin, and Sam are legendary Hobbits in their own rights.)

[RiotGear]

8 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Eventually, per "Rocks and Shoals" the Jem'hadar can go a number of days without the white without dying, so I don't buy the necessity of letting them bring fresh white into the arena.

Dude stop, humans can go three days with out water. Would you cry foul at a human wrestler hydrating before or during a match? How about eating a protein bar? If the Jem'Hadar have been keeping up on their regular ration of White, than they can Shroud, it's not like they have to take a hit to cloak.

8 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

 

The orcs are small unit melee fights at best and they are besting the men and dwarves in most battles. The times we do see orcs going down is to descendants of Numenor, the greatest warriors of Gondor, legendary Elvish princes, great cavalry warriors, angellic beings hiding in the form of old men, Dwarf warrirors whose skill with an axe is described as unmatched. The only Hobbit to Orc kills in the books are in Cirith Ungol. Sam gets the drop on the orcs, and the battle of Isengard where Merry and Pippin are atop an Ent where there is no threat of an orc engaging in melee with them throwing stuff at them. (and Merry, Pippin, and Sam are legendary Hobbits in their own rights.)

In every major battle Orcs fell to men, elves, and dwarves. Half Orcs dropped to Hobbits at the battle for the Shire.

This of course only applies if we are using Tolkien only Orcs, instead of generic fantasy Orcs. Which have been gelled by all manner of things.

[Twogunkid]

51 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Dude stop, humans can go three days with out water. Would you cry foul at a human wrestler hydrating before or during a match? How about eating a protein bar? If the Jem'Hadar have been keeping up on their regular ration of White, than they can Shroud, it's not like they have to take a hit to cloak.

In every major battle Orcs fell to men, elves, and dwarves. Half Orcs dropped to Hobbits at the battle for the Shire.

This of course only applies if we are using Tolkien only Orcs, instead of generic fantasy Orcs. Which have been gelled by all manner of things.

Generic fantasy orcs are even better. Stronger than humans. And half orcs are different than orcs just as uruk hai are. Also Sarumans forces consisted mainly of men from Dunland and the half orcs

[RiotGear]

5 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Generic fantasy orcs are even better. Stronger than humans. And half orcs are different than orcs just as uruk hai are. Also Sarumans forces consisted mainly of men from Dunland and the half orcs

Generic fantasy Orcs also have more instances of being defeated by humans, halflings etc. Think about all the times such things have happened in D&D.

Either way you look at it. Your point about Jem'Hadar losing to humans etc. Doesn't hold a lot of weight, when you realize the same is true for the Orcs.

Except the Orcs are less organized, more prone to infighting, are less intelligent, and can't turn invisible.

The Jem'Hadar have all of the Orcs advantages and none of their weaknesses.

[Twogunkid]

9 hours ago, RiotGear said:

Generic fantasy Orcs also have more instances of being defeated by humans, halflings etc. Think about all the times such things have happened in D&D.

Either way you look at it. Your point about Jem'Hadar losing to humans etc. Doesn't hold a lot of weight, when you realize the same is true for the Orcs.

Except the Orcs are less organized, more prone to infighting, are less intelligent, and can't turn invisible.

The Jem'Hadar have all of the Orcs advantages and none of their weaknesses.

Generic D&D Orcs are considered a fair challenge rating of 1/2 (Dungeons and Dragons Monster Mannual 3rd edition, 3.5 edition, and 5th edition) meaning that 1 orc is a match for a 2 level 1 characters as the challenge rating system assumes a party of 4 adventurers of the given level as a fair encounter, and the average human being in those settings is not an adventurer but a peasant. A human commoner has a challenge rating of 1/8 in 3rd edition and 0 in 5th. (I no longer own the 4th edition monster manual and AD&D handled challenge ratings differently). Using your Vulcan's who are 3x faster and stronger than humans ("Take Me Out to the Holosuite") the orcs are clocking in 4+x stronger than humans which should make them more than a match for the Jem'hadar

[RiotGear]

9 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Generic D&D Orcs are considered a fair challenge rating of 1/2 (Dungeons and Dragons Monster Mannual 3rd edition, 3.5 edition, and 5th edition) meaning that 1 orc is a match for a 2 level 1 characters as the challenge rating system assumes a party of 4 adventurers of the given level as a fair encounter, and the average human being in those settings is not an adventurer but a peasant. A human commoner has a challenge rating of 1/8 in 3rd edition and 0 in 5th. (I no longer own the 4th edition monster manual and AD&D handled challenge ratings differently). Using your Vulcan's who are 3x faster and stronger than humans ("Take Me Out to the Holosuite") the orcs are clocking in 4+x stronger than humans which should make them more than a match for the Jem'hadar

I am somewhat wary of trusting game mechanics. We have more than enough lore where humans, halflings, etc take out Orcs and it's not uncommon in fiction for those "heros" to have started the story as farm boys and the like.

Also using game mechanics Orcs get a +2 to strength stat boost. 2 is like 11% percent of 18 which is natural high for a human. I think the average human is said to have 8 or 10 strength, depending on the source used. So an Orc is roughly 10-20% stronger than your average human. That is a far cry from Vulcan that are 3xstronger than humans.

[Twogunkid]

1 hour ago, RiotGear said:

I am somewhat wary of trusting game mechanics. We have more than enough lore where humans, halflings, etc take out Orcs and it's not uncommon in fiction for those "heros" to have started the story as farm boys and the like.

Also using game mechanics Orcs get a +2 to strength stat boost. 2 is like 11% percent of 18 which is natural high for a human. I think the average human is said to have 8 or 10 strength, depending on the source used. So an Orc is roughly 10-20% stronger than your average human. That is a far cry from Vulcan that are 3xstronger than humans.

For rolling stats orcs get that. The average orc has a STR of 16-17, which has a lifting capacity of roughly 3x the average human of 10 STR. So that tracks perfectly.

[RiotGear]

19 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

For rolling stats orcs get that. The average orc has a STR of 16-17, which has a lifting capacity of roughly 3x the average human of 10 STR. So that tracks perfectly.

Either method can be used to generate Orc strength, so I'm not sure one is a more correct method. Again, one of the problems with trying to translate game mechanics into real life terms.

Also what table are you using get 3x. 17 is not 3x more than 8. At the table I can find. Gives lifting capacity for STR 10 at 100lbs and 260 for STR 17 ( 230 for STR 16 ). That's closer to 2.5x stronger.

Even if we use 3x stronger that should put them in the physical ballpark of the Jem'Hadar and their opponents.

And the Orcs still lack the unit cohesion, tactical skill, and the ability to turn invisible that the Jem'Hadar ha

[Twogunkid]

56 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Either method can be used to generate Orc strength, so I'm not sure one is a more correct method. Again, one of the problems with trying to translate game mechanics into real life terms.

Also what table are you using get 3x. 17 is not 3x more than 8. At the table I can find. Gives lifting capacity for STR 10 at 100lbs and 260 for STR 17 ( 230 for STR 16 ). That's closer to 2.5x stronger.

Even if we use 3x stronger that should put them in the physical ballpark of the Jem'Hadar and their opponents.

And the Orcs still lack the unit cohesion, tactical skill, and the ability to turn invisible that the Jem'Hadar ha

I have a table at light load for 10 is 33 lbs and light load for 17 is 100lbs. with corresponding medium and heavy loads.

[Mercenaryblade]

I'mma just leave this here: Fuel to the fire

 

[RiotGear]

30 minutes ago, Mercenaryblade said:

I'mma just leave this here: Fuel to the fire

 

You realize the Jem'Hadar were winning that fight right. Like one Jem'Hadar dropped multiple Cardassians. Also worth noting that as shown here said Cardassians are strong enough to toss around Quark who while smaller than some still has the proportions ( height and weight of a grown man ). In other words Cardassians are not weak.

As a counter point here is a clip of human Boromir, even after injured and Hobbits dropping Uruk-Hai, which are basically the super soldier version of Orcs.

and here Samwise a Hobbit gardener takes out a small group of Orcs.

 

 

 

[Twogunkid]

2 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

You realize the Jem'Hadar were winning that fight right. Like one Jem'Hadar dropped multiple Cardassians. Also worth noting that as shown here said Cardassians are strong enough to toss around Quark who while smaller than some still has the proportions ( height and weight of a grown man ). In other words Cardassians are not weak.

As a counter point here is a clip of human Boromir, even after injured and Hobbits dropping Uruk-Hai, which are basically the super soldier version of Orcs.

and here Samwise a Hobbit gardener takes out a small group of Orcs.

 

 

 

Boromir? The greatest warrior of the Kingdom of Gondor who has spent his whole life training and fighting? and Samwise Gamgee coming in after the orcs have all engaged in a long protracted battle with other orcs and coming in to clean up while also (from the novels) boosted by the One Ring?

 

The jemha'dar on the other hand spend weeks trying to beat Worf in hand to hand. They eventually are able to do it after Worf is worn down by repeated bouts and broken ribs. (DS9: By Inferno's Light). That episode by the way shows the Jem'hadar as having a sense of honor as one mentions that "[He] cannot defeat this klingon only kill him."

[Mercenaryblade]

2 hours ago, RiotGear said:

You realize the Jem'Hadar were winning that fight right. Like one Jem'Hadar dropped multiple Cardassians. Also worth noting that as shown here said Cardassians are strong enough to toss around Quark who while smaller than some still has the proportions ( height and weight of a grown man ). In other words Cardassians are not weak.

As a counter point here is a clip of human Boromir, even after injured and Hobbits dropping Uruk-Hai, which are basically the super soldier version of Orcs.

and here Samwise a Hobbit gardener takes out a small group of Orcs.

 

 

 

I wasn't weighing in on either sides favor, I was just leaving a clip of Jem Hadar in a fight. 

[RiotGear]

2 hours ago, Mercenaryblade said:

I wasn't weighing in on either sides favor, I was just leaving a clip of Jem Hadar in a fight. 

Yeah, sorry my bad. When I saw your post earlier, I thought it was Twogunkid posting.

[RiotGear]

6 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

I have a table at light load for 10 is 33 lbs and light load for 17 is 100lbs. with corresponding medium and heavy loads.

Interesting, the one I can find has light load at 33 for StR 10 and 86 for STR 17, but different edition have given different values.

[RiotGear]

4 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Boromir? The greatest warrior of the Kingdom of Gondor who has spent his whole life training and fighting? and Samwise Gamgee coming in after the orcs have all engaged in a long protracted battle with other orcs and coming in to clean up while also (from the novels) boosted by the One Ring?

 

The jemha'dar on the other hand spend weeks trying to beat Worf in hand to hand. They eventually are able to do it after Worf is worn down by repeated bouts and broken ribs. (DS9: By Inferno's Light). That episode by the way shows the Jem'hadar as having a sense of honor as one mentions that "[He] cannot defeat this klingon only kill him."

Boromir is still human, sure a very skilled and tough human. Who was killing orcs-kin in waves. Where as Worf a top tier warrior from a species of superhuman warriors was struggling one on one with Jem'Hadar, in the example you've given.

What does the ring amp. Also their is no evidence of a ring amp in the film.

Also you glossed over that Merry and Pip, were also killing Uruk-Hai.