13:11 - Doctor Doom vs. Seven of Nine

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 13, ROUND 11

Doctor Doom

Slot: The Team's Scientist
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Doctor Doom at this Wiki
Official Site: Marvel Comics

Seven of Nine

Slot: The Team's Scientist
Season Wins: 1
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Seven of Nine at this Wiki
Official Site: Paramount Television

Battle Terrain
Team Scientist Challenge: Science Fair

[RiotGear]

Dr. Doom, is arrogant and pompous, I'm not sure he'd know how to ask for help. His appearance isn't particularly inviting either.

Seven on the other hand actually has a long history of wheeling and dealing to aquire tech and supplies from here time on Voyager.

Also, when she became part of the main cast Voyager ( as in the show itself ) saw a massive jump in viewship and profitablity.

Seven can attract attention and negotiate/ask for help when needed. Doom is a Holier than though, psycho in a metal mask.

[C.T.]

Doom is grandiose and charismatic when he needs to be, despises losing, and is smarter. He puts on the better show

[RiotGear]

47 minutes ago, C.T. said:

Doom is grandiose and charismatic when he needs to be, despises losing, and is smarter. He puts on the better show

Nerds are gonna pay attention to Seven. Voyagers viewership skyrocketing after her introduction proves that. 

Doom is also the absolute dictator of an aggressive isolationist country, so funding his research, might be akin to funding terrorism or a country like North Korea, which is gonna be a turn off to investors. Who probably don't want their money to be used to make weapons, that end up being used on them.

Seven on the other hand is either a free agent or a representative of a multi-national peaceful government, that pursues peaceful coexistence and working toward mutual goals.

So even if Doom could put on a more attractive show, which he can't, funding Seven's research is the safer, better option for most investors.

[RiotGear]

1 hour ago, C.T. said:

Doom is grandiose and charismatic when he needs to be, despises losing, and is smarter. He puts on the better show

On second thought, would Doom even be able to bring himself, to ask for help. I'm not sure his ego and pride would allow him to even try this.

[Nesh]

4 hours ago, RiotGear said:

On second thought, would Doom even be able to bring himself, to ask for help. I'm not sure his ego and pride would allow him to even try this.

We have to assume he does for the sake of the challenge.  Depending on when Seven is from she wouldn't do this either, but to disqualify her because of that would be disingenuous.  Hell, most scenarios in this tournament likely wouldn't play out.  I think to be fair to all sides we have to assume an atempt is made.

[IKA]

6 hours ago, Nesh said:

Hell, most scenarios in this tournament likely wouldn't play out.  I think to be fair to all sides we have to assume an atempt is made.

This.

[RiotGear]

8 hours ago, Nesh said:

We have to assume he does for the sake of the challenge.  Depending on when Seven is from she wouldn't do this either, but to disqualify her because of that would be disingenuous.  Hell, most scenarios in this tournament likely wouldn't play out.  I think to be fair to all sides we have to assume an atempt is made.

In the literal sense perhaps, but I'm not sure we have to assume he does any more than show up. 

We have examples of similar things coming up in other matches. The fact that Conan had never ridden a bike was held against him in a triathlon match, it was assumed Bruce Lee wouldn't swim in another. Because these are things that the contestant either showed no ability to do or showed an inability/aversion to doing.

Similarly Doom doesn't grovel or pander. So I'm not sure we should treat it any different from the other examples.

[Nesh]

20 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

In the literal sense perhaps, but I'm not sure we have to assume he does any more than show up. 

We have examples of similar things coming up in other matches. The fact that Conan had never ridden a bike was held against him in a triathlon match, it was assumed Bruce Lee wouldn't swim in another. Because these are things that the contestant either showed no ability to do or showed an inability/aversion to doing.

Similarly Doom doesn't grovel or pander. So I'm not sure we should treat it any different from the other examples.

Grovel?  Pander? No.  Show off and secure extra funding, yes.  It's not like Seven is much better socially adjusted than Doom.  She's not really one to "grovel" or "pander" as you put it either.

[IKA]

10 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

We have examples of similar things coming up in other matches. The fact that Conan had never ridden a bike was held against him in a triathlon match, it was assumed Bruce Lee wouldn't swim in another. Because these are things that the contestant either showed no ability to do or showed an inability/aversion to doing.

These were things used against why they wouldn't do well in a challenge, not that they wouldn't attempt it at all.

[RiotGear]

2 hours ago, Nesh said:

Grovel?  Pander? No.  Show off and secure extra funding, yes.  It's not like Seven is much better socially adjusted than Doom.  She's not really one to "grovel" or "pander" as you put it either.

Semantics of my word choice aside. Doom doesn't ask, nor would he be comfortable or good at asking for help. At most he'd show up and make demands.

Seven has actually negotiated before, fairly routinely asks for help/advice, and has learned to work in groups. On top of being, while sometimes awkward and arrogant. Still a a pragmatist. 

She seems efficiency, Doom is out to stroke his own ego.

[Nesh]

8 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Semantics of my word choice aside. Doom doesn't ask, nor would he be comfortable or good at asking for help. At most he'd show up and make demands.

Seven has actually negotiated before, fairly routinely asks for help/advice, and has learned to work in groups. On top of being, while sometimes awkward and arrogant. Still a a pragmatist. 

She seems efficiency, Doom is out to stroke his own ego.

And winning would stroke his ego, therefore he'd put his all into it and he can make far better tech than Seven can.

[RiotGear]

7 minutes ago, Nesh said:

And winning would stroke his ego, therefore he'd put his all into it and he can make far better tech than Seven can.

Maybe, but he'd just as likely not even see the competition as worth his time and again having to ask for help would bruise his pride, probably even more so then winning would boost it.

[Nesh]

9 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Maybe, but he'd just as likely not even see the competition as worth his time and again having to ask for help would bruise his pride, probably even more so then winning would boost it.

Well why would Seven bother with a science fair to get funding (As the set-up says is the goal) when she's a Starfleet officer of high rank with free access to the technology of a post-scarcity Federation and the knowledge of the Borg?  In reality both of them would find this beneath them.  It's a moot point.

[RiotGear]

7 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Well why would Seven bother with a science fair to get funding (As the set-up says is the goal) when she's a Starfleet officer of high rank with free access to the technology of a post-scarcity Federation and the knowledge of the Borg?  In reality both of them would find this beneath them.  It's a moot point.

Seven operates outside the normal system of Federation funding both on her own and as part of the Voyager crew. Their are also times that the Federation has negotiated terms for specific materials.

The prompt says funding, not what form that funding comes in.

Also being more function over form oriented than Doom and having grown to see the value in cooperation. Asking for help, even if it's not entirely needed. Is something Seven is more likely to do them Victor. 

Winning the match and going home, holds more value to Seven than it does to Doom. He is gonna be way more caught up in his own feelings about having to ask for help etc.

[Nesh]

5 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

Seven operates outside the normal system of Federation funding both on her own and as part of the Voyager crew. Their are also times that the Federation has negotiated terms for specific materials.

The prompt says funding, not what form that funding comes in.

Also being more function over form oriented than Doom and having grown to see the value in cooperation. Asking for help, even if it's not entirely needed. Is something Seven is more likely to do them Victor. 

Winning the match and going home, holds more value to Seven than it does to Doom. He is gonna be way more caught up in his own feelings about having to ask for help etc.

Dude, Seven's Captain of the flagship as of the end of Picard, my statement was accurate.  Funding by definition means money.

fund·ing

/ˈfəndiNG/

noun

money provided, especially by an organization or government, for a particular purpose.

"funding for the project was provided by the Housing Corporation"

the action or practice of providing money for a particular purpose.

"the public funding of litigation remains a core question"

 

So, again, neither one of them would have any reason to enter this this thing, So let's stop debating this and actually start debating who can put on the better show and secure more funding, which is the actual prompt.

[RiotGear]

46 minutes ago, Nesh said:

Dude, Seven's Captain of the flagship as of the end of Picard, my statement was accurate.  Funding by definition means money.

fund·ing

/ˈfəndiNG/

noun

money provided, especially by an organization or government, for a particular purpose.

"funding for the project was provided by the Housing Corporation"

the action or practice of providing money for a particular purpose.

"the public funding of litigation remains a core question"

 

So, again, neither one of them would have any reason to enter this this thing, So let's stop debating this and actually start debating who can put on the better show and secure more funding, which is the actual prompt.

And Starfleet have had to negotiate for materials before

Here is what funding is,..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funding

I have already discussed other parts of this match. You've simply latched on to your own semantic interpretation of part of what I said. 

For the record what we've been discussing covers not only whether the contestants would literally engage with the challenge, but also gives us an idea of how well they could if they chose to.

As the person who has more experience with and is more comfortable with asking for help, will do it better when required to do so.

So even if we assume Doom, begrudgingly commits, he is not going to be able to do so as well as Seven.

[Nesh]

10 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

And Starfleet have had to negotiate for materials before

Here is what funding is,..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funding

I have already discussed other parts of this match. You've simply latched on to your own semantic interpretation of part of what I said. 

For the record what we've been discussing covers not only whether the contestants would literally engage with the challenge, but also gives us an idea of how well they could if they chose to.

As the person who has more experience with and is more comfortable with asking for help, will do it better when required to do so.

So even if we assume Doom, begrudgingly commits, he is not going to be able to do so as well as Seven.

I pulled up a dictionary definition of funding, now who's arguing semantics?  Especially when the distinction espoused by that article has citation needed next to it. Doom would still be able to put together a more impressive proposal than Seven , because he can make better tech/

[RiotGear]

58 minutes ago, Nesh said:

I pulled up a dictionary definition of funding, now who's arguing semantics?  Especially when the distinction espoused by that article has citation needed next to it. Doom would still be able to put together a more impressive proposal than Seven , because he can make better tech/

You, I went for a broad definition, you are going for a very narrow one. 

Presenting this sort of proposal is as much about the presentation as about what is being proposed.

One of the biggest things is gonna be who can grab the attention of the audience more and sorry Seven is gonna attract more attention from a bunch of rich tech bros, for both appearance and personality. 

Remember Seven is an attractive intelligent woman, who at this point actually pursues proper human interaction, though is still a bit quirky, just the kinda person to hit big with old school nerds and companies wanting to do business with women in STEM fields. Doom is an angry arrogant violent asshole, wearing armor, not somebody most folks would wanna do business with.

And again, anybody looking at these twos backing organizations/origins is gonna be trepidatious at best about backing Doom. Who again runs a warmongering isolationist state. Any research funded runs the risk of being used against the investors.

Doing business with the Federation is a lot safer option, than doing business with Latvaria.

Also as a bit of push back, what tech does Vicky Von Doom have that is better than what Seven of Nine has access to?

[Nesh]

4 minutes ago, RiotGear said:

You, I went for a broad definition, you are going for a very narrow one. 

Presenting this sort of proposal is as much about the presentation as about what is being proposed.

One of the biggest things is gonna be who can grab the attention of the audience more and sorry Seven is gonna attract more attention from a bunch of rich tech bros, for both appearance and personality. 

Remember Seven is an attractive intelligent woman, who at this point actually pursues proper human interaction, though is still a bit quirky, just the kinda person to hit big with old school nerds and companies wanting to do business with women in STEM fields. Doom is an angry arrogant violent asshole, wearing armor, not somebody most folks would wanna do business with.

And again, anybody looking at these twos backing organizations/origins is gonna be trepidatious at best about backing Doom. Who again runs a warmongering isolationist state. Any research funded runs the risk of being used against the investors.

Doing business with the Federation is a lot safer option, than doing business with Latvaria.

Also as a bit of push back, what tech does Vicky Von Doom have that is better than what Seven of Nine has access to?

I'm sorry the actual definition of the word is too narrow for you,  The Doombots are likely better than anything Seven could whip up, the Time Travel platform is beyond early 25th century Starfleet tech.  His armor on par with Iron Man, of which Trek has never shown.  Doom could do anything Seven could and more.

[leroypowell3]

I say Doom wins. 

Beneath him this competition would be but he won't have some Borg lady in a cat suit outdue Latveria. 

He'll send a doombot, some robo-dancing chicks and a Beyonder-stealing Silver Surfer board contraption that he made in high school and win the funding. 

Then he'll have the borg woman brought to him to... inspect her qualities....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RiotGear]

26 minutes ago, Nesh said:

I'm sorry the actual definition of the word is too narrow for you,  The Doombots are likely better than anything Seven could whip up, the Time Travel platform is beyond early 25th century Starfleet tech.  His armor on par with Iron Man, of which Trek has never shown.  Doom could do anything Seven could and more.

Except two different definitions have been provided. One broader, one more narrow. One that allows for funding in moneyless economic models and one that doesn't.

You are basically saying that funding something would be impossible in a barter economy, even if you invested time and resources.

The Borg and Starfleet are capable of time travel, they've developed multiple ways to do so over time. Seven no doubt has the plans for Synths and other androids/robot, force fields, sensors, rocket boots etc are all things we've seen in Star Trek.

[DSkillz]

Yeah, I'm thinking Doom wins this. Not only does have more impressive inventions and an entire litany of them more than Seven, he also has likely competed in his share of science fairs, and maybe even some against Reed Richards in college. 

[Pizzaguy2995]

Eh I like RiotGear’s arguments, besides Doom will probably see a science fair as beneath him and bail halfway through.

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Doctor Doom: 7
Seven of Nine: 6