13:17 - Jigsaw (John Kramer) vs. Polar Express

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 13, ROUND 17

Jigsaw (John Kramer)

Slot: The Team's Horror Icon
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 1
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Jigsaw (John Kramer) at Wikipedia
Official Site: Lion Gates Films

Polar Express

Slot: The Team's Christmas Themed Character
Season Wins: 2
Season Losses: 2
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Polar Express at Wikipedia
Official Site: Warner Bros. Pictures

Battle Terrain
Christmas Vs. Halloween: Santa's Workshop

[Peypeypeypey]

Jigsaw should be able to take out the people running the train fairly easily. Does he have to destroy the vehicle itself?

[DSkillz]

4 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Jigsaw should be able to take out the people running the train fairly easily. Does he have to destroy the vehicle itself?

You're underestimating the well-oiled machine that is the Polar Express crew. Not only do they navigate all manner of mishaps and disasters (in fact, mishaps on the Polar Express tend to correct themselves), but they'll also be on their home turf. 

Besides, Jigsaw is at least middle-aged by even the first Saw movie. No way he can hope to even keep up with this crew. 

[Peypeypeypey]

I think something overlooked here is Jigsaw's intelligence and vast resources. His plans are basically impossibly complex and they always work, and he's got a seemingly endless supply of money and resources to do all of his Saw-ing. He should be more than capable of coming up with a solution, especially when they are trapped in a relatively small area. Set up traps all over, light the building on fire, that kind of thing

[DSkillz]

7 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

I think something overlooked here is Jigsaw's intelligence and vast resources. His plans are basically impossibly complex and they always work, and he's got a seemingly endless supply of money and resources to do all of his Saw-ing. He should be more than capable of coming up with a solution, especially when they are trapped in a relatively small area. Set up traps all over, light the building on fire, that kind of thing

Jigsaw can strategize and bring as many resources as he wants, but he can't game plan against the power of the Christmas spirit as it's portrayed in the Polar Express movie, which is basically what fuels and protects the Express and ensures that it safely gets the North Pole with its crew all the children it picks up year after year. 

There's simply no other explanation how, for example: 

- The conductor and children can walk outside of and along the top of the train without falling off, or ...

- How the train can drift on a partially-frozen lake without veering off-course or keep from sinking in as the ice gives way. 

Whatever plan Jigsaw tries to enact, the Polar Express has likely been doing its annual run for well over a century and has likely seen and overcome more than what Jigsaw can throw at it. He's not just going to have to deal with the resourcefulness and magic of its crew and the train itself, but with the equally well-oiled machine that is the legion of Santa's elves at and around the workshop helping to look out for it and so that it can go on its annual journey next year. 

[DSkillz]

To add to this, if I'm not mistaken, a few people have actually escaped Jigsaw's traps, and he builds them specifically so that his victims have a chance to escape. If he's looking to take out the entire Polar Express, it wouldn't be the best move for Jigsaw to give a(n albeit cruel) chance to a team that, throughout all its time bringing kids to and from the North Pole, has encountered countless mishaps and perils and, as far as we know, has had only one casualty the whole time. 

[Peypeypeypey]

Jigsaw chooses to build a way out of his traps, but he doesn't have to do that. If his goal is specifically to kill someone, he will just kill them. There are traps in Saw that are inescapable, and he is more than capable of killing large quantities of people at once. 

Unrelated, but I also think having an entire trains worth of people for a category is a little strange when everyone else only has one character. I get that the Polar Express itself is a Christmas "Character" of sorts, it's just a little odd that it gets a while crew when no other character gets support like that

[DSkillz]

15 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Jigsaw chooses to build a way out of his traps, but he doesn't have to do that. If his goal is specifically to kill someone, he will just kill them. There are traps in Saw that are inescapable, and he is more than capable of killing large quantities of people at once. 

Giving his victims an option to escape, no matter how arduous, is literally Jigsaw's modus operandi. Don't see why he would change that up for this particular task.

Besides, it's very difficult to make a trap inescapable when magic's involved, such as the magic that surrounds the Express and Christmas as a whole in the movie. Unless you're saying that Jigsaw can suddenly perform magic. 

15 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

Unrelated, but I also think having an entire trains worth of people for a category is a little strange when everyone else only has one character. I get that the Polar Express itself is a Christmas "Character" of sorts, it's just a little odd that it gets a while crew when no other character gets support like that

Here's the thing: the Polar Express is essentially a character onto itself, and the picks have already been accepted at this point. 

[Peypeypeypey]

10 minutes ago, DSkillz said:

Giving his victims an option to escape, no matter how arduous, is literally Jigsaw's modus operandi. Don't see why he would change that up for this particular task.

Besides, it's very difficult to make a trap inescapable when magic's involved, such as the magic that surrounds the Express and Christmas as a whole in the movie. Unless you're saying that Jigsaw can suddenly perform magic. 

Here's the thing: the Polar Express is essentially a character onto itself, and the picks have already been accepted at this point. 

Oh I wasn't even trying to say the Polar Express shouldn't have been accepted. I agree it's fine that it got in. It just makes for some strange challenges and some unusual interpretations though lol

As for the first point, again, there are Saw traps that are 100% inescapable, or rely entirely on someone else to survive (sorry about the terrible click bait article but it gets the "Jigsaw often makes inescapable traps" point across). Jigsaw is not at all above just killing people. And the reason we should assume he's going for the throat (or train whistle as it were) this time is because that's what the the challenge is. He is motivated to kill this train. 

[DSkillz]

3 hours ago, Peypeypeypey said:

As for the first point, again, there are Saw traps that are 100% inescapable, or rely entirely on someone else to survive (sorry about the terrible click bait article but it gets the "Jigsaw often makes inescapable traps" point across). Jigsaw is not at all above just killing people. And the reason we should assume he's going for the throat (or train whistle as it were) this time is because that's what the the challenge is. He is motivated to kill this train. 

Once again, Jigsaw's schtick is to make traps that give his victims a chance to escape, no matter how slight or harsh that chance may be. 

Even so, unlike the films, Jigsaw's not dealing with normal, everyday people here. It's going to be virtually impossible to make a trap that's inescapable for people that get through impossible situations on an annual basis, whether through their own skill and ingenuity or the sheer magic that surrounds the Express that allow things to always go their way and gets them to the North Pole. 

And speaking of being helped by others to survive, the Express and its crew and passengers definitely aren't alone.  If there's even a hint of anything going awry there, Santa's elves and even Santa himself if necessary are there to intervene and help out. 

[Pizzaguy2995]

I came into this wondering how exactly Jigsaw was supposed to kill a train, but if just killing the train’s crew people count then I’d give it to Mr. Kramer. He can kill loads of people in short order. 

[Twogunkid]

19 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

I came into this wondering how exactly Jigsaw was supposed to kill a train, but if just killing the train’s crew people count then I’d give it to Mr. Kramer. He can kill loads of people in short order. 

Man if you grew up reading the railway series, you'd know about all the unfortunate fates that befell steam trains.

[DSkillz]

1 hour ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

I came into this wondering how exactly Jigsaw was supposed to kill a train, but if just killing the train’s crew people count then I’d give it to Mr. Kramer. He can kill loads of people in short order. 

 

1 hour ago, Twogunkid said:

Man if you grew up reading the railway series, you'd know about all the unfortunate fates that befell steam trains.

You guys do remember that the Polar Express gets out of situations in logically impossible ways all of the time, right? Like drifting on ice and the floating golden ticket? Not to mention that, being at Santa's workshop, the train and crew will be getting an assist from Santa and his elves. 

I've posted videos pointing all of this out. 

[Culwych1]

Jigsaw is a horror character that doesn't really "slay"; he forces his victims to choose between death and redemption (of a sort). His opponent is a train and its crew. I had literally no idea how this one could pan out - so I asked AI to summarise a movie where these two crossover, and here is the result: 

 

 

In a chilling twist on holiday cheer, "Jigsaw's Polar Nightmare" melds the macabre ingenuity of Jigsaw with the wintry wonder of the Polar Express. The story unfolds as Jigsaw, driven by his twisted moral compass, targets the iconic train in a bid to test the faith and integrity of its passengers and crew. Setting diabolical traps amidst the snowy landscapes and the magical carriages of the Polar Express, Jigsaw forces each passenger to confront their deepest fears and darkest secrets in a series of harrowing challenges. As the journey becomes a survival gauntlet, the true spirit of Christmas and humanity is put to the ultimate test. In a heart-stopping climax, the passengers band together, their shared trials fostering an unbreakable bond that leads them to outwit Jigsaw. The movie concludes on a note of poignant victory, as the Polar Express, battered but unbowed, reaches its destination, teaching everyone aboard the true meaning of courage, redemption, and the indomitable strength of the human spirit in the face of darkness.

 

Guess I'm leaning Polar Express.

[Peypeypeypey]

25 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

Jigsaw is a horror character that doesn't really "slay"; he forces his victims to choose between death and redemption (of a sort). His opponent is a train and its crew. I had literally no idea how this one could pan out - so I asked AI to summarise a movie where these two crossover, and here is the result: 

 

 

In a chilling twist on holiday cheer, "Jigsaw's Polar Nightmare" melds the macabre ingenuity of Jigsaw with the wintry wonder of the Polar Express. The story unfolds as Jigsaw, driven by his twisted moral compass, targets the iconic train in a bid to test the faith and integrity of its passengers and crew. Setting diabolical traps amidst the snowy landscapes and the magical carriages of the Polar Express, Jigsaw forces each passenger to confront their deepest fears and darkest secrets in a series of harrowing challenges. As the journey becomes a survival gauntlet, the true spirit of Christmas and humanity is put to the ultimate test. In a heart-stopping climax, the passengers band together, their shared trials fostering an unbreakable bond that leads them to outwit Jigsaw. The movie concludes on a note of poignant victory, as the Polar Express, battered but unbowed, reaches its destination, teaching everyone aboard the true meaning of courage, redemption, and the indomitable strength of the human spirit in the face of darkness.

 

Guess I'm leaning Polar Express.

Well I can't argue with that

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Jigsaw (John Kramer): 3
Polar Express: 6