13:17 - Amazo vs. Data (Star Trek)

[UMPIRE]

SEASON 13, ROUND 17

Amazo

Slot: The Team's Artificial Intelligence
Season Wins: 3
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Amazo at Wikipedia
Official Site: DC Comics

Data (Star Trek)

Slot: The Team's Artificial Intelligence
Season Wins: 3
Season Losses: 0
Fantasy Team Page
Read more about Data (Star Trek) at Wikipedia
Official Site: Paramount Television

Battle Terrain
Team A.I. Challenge: Chess

[Culwych1]

Amazo's hobby is playing chess (as seen in the series and listed on his villains wiki), and he is a being that thrives on near instant evolution (which can happen even during a best of 100 games). Deanna Troi beat Data at a game of chess in the series. I think it'll be close, but Amazo has enough power and add to his amazing brain to do this. 

[Twogunkid]

Data is also a gamster and he adapts very quickly to new problems. In the DCAU Aquaman was getting better against Amazo and closer to getting him. Aquaman is no data in intelligence which bodes well for Data.

Deanna does beat Data in 3-D Chess, but Data comes back from his defeats and learns well. I would point to the Stratagema game against a grandmaster who in theory could not be defeated and Data outplays him by effectively forcing him to withdraw from the game when the game had never gone that high before. That was Data's second time playing the game. Data's rate of learning is phenomenal, so I think his faster pace plays to him besting Amazo.

[Culwych1]

19 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

Data is also a gamster and he adapts very quickly to new problems. In the DCAU Aquaman was getting better against Amazo and closer to getting him. Aquaman is no data in intelligence which bodes well for Data.

Deanna does beat Data in 3-D Chess, but Data comes back from his defeats and learns well. I would point to the Stratagema game against a grandmaster who in theory could not be defeated and Data outplays him by effectively forcing him to withdraw from the game when the game had never gone that high before. That was Data's second time playing the game. Data's rate of learning is phenomenal, so I think his faster pace plays to him besting Amazo.

I'd lean towards the AI that can adapt (and absorb) the complex mechanisms of a Green Lantern ring in seconds, or peer into the microverse, or be able to do complex enough computations to move entire planets to different dimensions in the blink of an eye. The level of complexity and speed of adaptability is just far greater than anything Data has ever shown. 

[Twogunkid]

5 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

I'd lean towards the AI that can adapt (and absorb) the complex mechanisms of a Green Lantern ring in seconds, or peer into the microverse, or be able to do complex enough computations to move entire planets to different dimensions in the blink of an eye. The level of complexity and speed of adaptability is just far greater than anything Data has ever shown. 

In comparative seconds Data is able to break a time loop with the Starship Bozeman, Data is able to adapt to new space anamolies in moments and saves the Enterprise multiple times, and Data adapts to a new game strategy to beat a grandmaster after playing him once.

Amazo may be able to copy powers impressively, but when Grundy drained him and he was confronted with new variables he fled. Aquaman's improvement against him speaks to Amazo being beatable, and Data is (pardon the Trek pun) the best of both worlds of creativity and machine knowledge.

[Culwych1]

11 minutes ago, Twogunkid said:

In comparative seconds Data is able to break a time loop with the Starship Bozeman, Data is able to adapt to new space anamolies in moments and saves the Enterprise multiple times, and Data adapts to a new game strategy to beat a grandmaster after playing him once.

Amazo may be able to copy powers impressively, but when Grundy drained him and he was confronted with new variables he fled. Aquaman's improvement against him speaks to Amazo being beatable, and Data is (pardon the Trek pun) the best of both worlds of creativity and machine knowledge.

That was specifically chaos magic, which is an immensely powerful force in DC and it was causing all sorts of issues. 

Aquaman is a passionate chess player, and considered an expert. Aquaman's "improvement" against Amazo is Amazo beating him in 16 moves, which is an improvement on how quickly he got beaten the previous times. It by no means suggests that Amazo could not level up again, as he has shown to do. 

[Twogunkid]

17 minutes ago, Culwych1 said:

That was specifically chaos magic, which is an immensely powerful force in DC and it was causing all sorts of issues. 

Aquaman is a passionate chess player, and considered an expert. Aquaman's "improvement" against Amazo is Amazo beating him in 16 moves, which is an improvement on how quickly he got beaten the previous times. It by no means suggests that Amazo could not level up again, as he has shown to do. 

Aquaman is getting mated in 8 to begin with and then 16. I don't know how passionate Aquaman can be getting mated that fast falling for things like the Englund Gambit, Fool's Mate, or Scholar's Mate. His improvement at a pace of nearly doubling actually speaks against Amazo's chess skill.

When confronted with a potentially dangerous situation Amazo flees, Data comes up with solutions. This will be a great series of games, but Data is better at adapting new strategies and data into unknown scenarios.

Amazo, for all his evolution and power, is a very blunt android. His solution to Oa being in his way is to remove it. He plows through the league to ask Luthor what his purpose is, he does not endeavor to figure it out on his own till Luthor tells him to, and he flees Grundy when something is outside his ken. This speaks against his ability to formulate new strategies in the face of unknown or unexpected variables.

[Culwych1]

7 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Aquaman is getting mated in 8 to begin with and then 16. I don't know how passionate Aquaman can be getting mated that fast falling for things like the Englund Gambit, Fool's Mate, or Scholar's Mate. His improvement at a pace of nearly doubling actually speaks against Amazo's chess skill.

When confronted with a potentially dangerous situation Amazo flees, Data comes up with solutions. This will be a great series of games, but Data is better at adapting new strategies and data into unknown scenarios.

Amazo, for all his evolution and power, is a very blunt android. His solution to Oa being in his way is to remove it. He plows through the league to ask Luthor what his purpose is, he does not endeavor to figure it out on his own till Luthor tells him to, and he flees Grundy when something is outside his ken. This speaks against his ability to formulate new strategies in the face of unknown or unexpected variables.

Again, this was the logical option as the chaos magic was growing stronger so Amazo made sure to prevent that and removed himself from the scenario. He solved the problem. 

Meanwhile Data got stuck in a Chinese finger trap.

 

 

[Twogunkid]

3 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

Again, this was the logical option as the chaos magic was growing stronger so Amazo made sure to prevent that and removed himself from the scenario. He solved the problem. 

Meanwhile Data got stuck in a Chinese finger trap.

 

 

From the 1st season there, by the time of the second Data has grown immensely in his problem solving capabilities. Including rather unorthodox solutions like when as part of Picard's ragtag flotilla or when encountering the Borg

[Culwych1]

3 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

From the 1st season there, by the time of the second Data has grown immensely in his problem solving capabilities. Including rather unorthodox solutions like when as part of Picard's ragtag flotilla or when encountering the Borg

Don't know... the finger trap is a prank toy for kids and he couldn't figure it out. Feels like a very low show, even if he did progress after that.

I suppose the key argument is that if we are using intelligence as a measure of their ability to play chess (which makes sense), then there seems to be a quite huge divide simply by the scale of their powers.

Amazo literally has the ability to instantly compute the exact coordinates in two dimensions simultaneously and safely move entire planets between them. If Data had that level of intellect then he'd be moving entire Borg fleets out of the way as well, instead of allowing the fleet to get into trouble in the first place.

I may be wrong, but aren't there a few instances of Data being manipulated or turned against the fleet?

[Twogunkid]

6 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

Don't know... the finger trap is a prank toy for kids and he couldn't figure it out. Feels like a very low show, even if he did progress after that.

I suppose the key argument is that if we are using intelligence as a measure of their ability to play chess (which makes sense), then there seems to be a quite huge divide simply by the scale of their powers.

Amazo literally has the ability to instantly compute the exact coordinates in two dimensions simultaneously and safely move entire planets between them. If Data had that level of intellect then he'd be moving entire Borg fleets out of the way as well, instead of allowing the fleet to get into trouble in the first place.

I may be wrong, but aren't there a few instances of Data being manipulated or turned against the fleet?

That speaks to Amazo's ability to percieve and he also possesses the combined Justice League Power to do. Data can do the calculations for things moving at FTL and the movements needed there, so he can totally do those calculations. He just lacks the physical capacity to do what is needed.

 

Most of those instances involve Lore or the Borg Queen. Lore has an unprecedented edge by being the same type of Android and the Borg Queen is undone by her manipulation.

[Culwych1]

9 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

That speaks to Amazo's ability to percieve and he also possesses the combined Justice League Power to do. Data can do the calculations for things moving at FTL and the movements needed there, so he can totally do those calculations. He just lacks the physical capacity to do what is needed.

 

Most of those instances involve Lore or the Borg Queen. Lore has an unprecedented edge by being the same type of Android and the Borg Queen is undone by her manipulation.

I don't think he could do those calculations instantaneously like Amazo could. Being able to think that fast is a good factor in chess.

[Twogunkid]

17 hours ago, Culwych1 said:

I don't think he could do those calculations instantaneously like Amazo could. Being able to think that fast is a good factor in chess.

Presumably they can play with a timer like all chess games do and Data is quick enough there as seen through his stratagema game and his ability to do complex calculations quickly elsewhere.

[Pizzaguy2995]

Me feeling like making popcorn and sipping a cold one as I watch @Culwych1 and @Twogunkid debate. It’s like the CBUB version of a heavy weight matchup. 

[Culwych1]

19 hours ago, Twogunkid said:

Presumably they can play with a timer like all chess games do and Data is quick enough there as seen through his stratagema game and his ability to do complex calculations quickly elsewhere.

A timer doesn't matter if one character can do significantly more complex calculations faster, and thereby be 50x more moves ahead (maths calculation pending)!

[Culwych1]

7 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Me feeling like making popcorn and sipping a cold one as I watch @Culwych1 and @Twogunkid debate. It’s like the CBUB version of a heavy weight matchup. 

😄😄😄

@Twogunkid is in another league, I'm just doing my best to keep up with the master!

...Much like Data would would do in this chess match... 

[Twogunkid]

1 minute ago, Culwych1 said:

😄😄😄

@Twogunkid is in another league, I'm just doing my best to keep up with the master!

...Much like Data would would do in this chess match... 

I still hold you were the true victor last time. You out pointed me even if I tied in the finals.

[Twogunkid]

14 minutes ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Me feeling like making popcorn and sipping a cold one as I watch @Culwych1 and @Twogunkid debate. It’s like the CBUB version of a heavy weight matchup. 

Glad to keep you entertained.

 

Also great title fights are why everyone should be voting Ippo in the Mr. Terrific bout!

[DSkillz]

This would definitely make an interesting chess match. Data's indeed a brilliant mind, but it feels like Amazo just may have the edge in that regard. No telling how much intellect he's acquired along with all those powers by his last JLU appearance. 

11 hours ago, Pizzaguy2995 said:

Me feeling like making popcorn and sipping a cold one as I watch @Culwych1 and @Twogunkid debate. It’s like the CBUB version of a heavy weight matchup. 

Agreed. This is just about the semi the Draft needed (especially since I or pey get to pick up the pieces afterward 😛 ).

[UMPIRE]

Match Final Results

Amazo: 5
Data (Star Trek): 4